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>(it is impossible to convince societies to take massive quality-of-life reductions) Why do you say degrowth = lower quality of life? Let me give you a simple

>(it is impossible to convince societies to take massive quality-of-life reductions) Why do you say degrowth = lower quality of life? Let me give you a simple and practical example: an American living in a suburb takes her gas-guzzler 3-ton SUV to go shopping or to the park, stands in traffic in a 4-lane freeway for one hour. A Dutch living in a suburb takes her bike to go shopping or to the park, rides it through a nice street for 10 minutes. The former consumed much more resources than the latter. Who has the better quality of life?

MontyCarloHall 4y ago
It doesn’t matter what you or I think; what matters is that the American living in a single family house driving a big car will perceive anything else as a reduction in quality-of-life and vehemently oppose it. Also, not even the worst suburbs require you to regularly wait in traffic for an hour to go to the supermarket or a park. These are usually 10 minute drives away. And if it’s raining, or too cold, or too hot out, I would gladly take the (electric) SUV over the bike.
refurb 4y ago
Who has the better quality of life? I don't know, isn't "quality of life" a personal, subjective measure? The best example I can give is Singapore. Fantastic public transit, high vehicle import taxes (like 100%) and a system where you need a separate permit to own a care that costs >$100,000 for 10 years. And yet no lack of people who buy cars. The people I worked with there all owned cars. They could certainly get around without one, but they wanted one, despite the alternatives.
- andrepd 4y ago
  The US has about 6× more cars per capita than Singapore.
  - refurb 4y ago
    Sure, but clearly the demand is still there despite the alternatives!
weberer 4y ago
A typical American in the suburbs certainly does not go on a highway to go to the supermarket or park. Those are all local amenities. I know some regions have problems with sidewalk coverage like Florida and way out west, but the suburbs are perfectly walkable anywhere in the northeast. Cities less so due to crime. And you definitely wouldn't have highway traffic in the suburbs, that's more of a downtown thing.
- ceras 4y ago
  > suburbs are perfectly walkable anywhere in the northeast. Cities less so due to crime This isn't true. I've lived in and visited plenty of northeastern suburbs and cities. The suburbs are largely not walkable: no sidewalk, long distances, and as a result basically nobody walks to any shop. The cities are walkable and with a large amount of residents actually walking.
  - weberer 4y ago
    I don't know where you lived, but everywhere around Philadelphia/NYC/Boston had sidewalks unless you were way out in the sticks. I lived within a 10 minute walk to the closest supermarket, and 5 minutes to the closest Wawa. You'd see people jogging and walking their dogs at all hours of the day. Conversely, in North Philadelphia the general advice was to stay off the streets after dark unless you were in a car.
millimeterman 4y ago
What exactly do you think is degrowth? Allowing construction of dense, walkable cities would likely dramatically _increase_ economic growth in the US.

MontyCarloHall 4y ago

It doesn’t matter what you or I think; what matters is that the American living in a single family house driving a big car will perceive anything else as a reduction in quality-of-life and vehemently oppose it. Also, not even the worst suburbs require you to regularly wait in traffic for an hour to go to the supermarket or a park. These are usually 10 minute drives away. And if it’s raining, or too cold, or too hot out, I would gladly take the (electric) SUV over the bike.

refurb 4y ago

Who has the better quality of life? I don't know, isn't "quality of life" a personal, subjective measure? The best example I can give is Singapore. Fantastic public transit, high vehicle import taxes (like 100%) and a system where you need a separate permit to own a care that costs >$100,000 for 10 years. And yet no lack of people who buy cars. The people I worked with there all owned cars. They could certainly get around without one, but they wanted one, despite the alternatives.

andrepd 4y ago
The US has about 6× more cars per capita than Singapore.
- refurb 4y ago
  Sure, but clearly the demand is still there despite the alternatives!

weberer 4y ago

A typical American in the suburbs certainly does not go on a highway to go to the supermarket or park. Those are all local amenities. I know some regions have problems with sidewalk coverage like Florida and way out west, but the suburbs are perfectly walkable anywhere in the northeast. Cities less so due to crime. And you definitely wouldn't have highway traffic in the suburbs, that's more of a downtown thing.

ceras 4y ago
> suburbs are perfectly walkable anywhere in the northeast. Cities less so due to crime This isn't true. I've lived in and visited plenty of northeastern suburbs and cities. The suburbs are largely not walkable: no sidewalk, long distances, and as a result basically nobody walks to any shop. The cities are walkable and with a large amount of residents actually walking.
- weberer 4y ago
  I don't know where you lived, but everywhere around Philadelphia/NYC/Boston had sidewalks unless you were way out in the sticks. I lived within a 10 minute walk to the closest supermarket, and 5 minutes to the closest Wawa. You'd see people jogging and walking their dogs at all hours of the day. Conversely, in North Philadelphia the general advice was to stay off the streets after dark unless you were in a car.

millimeterman 4y ago

What exactly do you think is degrowth? Allowing construction of dense, walkable cities would likely dramatically _increase_ economic growth in the US.