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>Labour is usually 8hrs/day 40hr/week. Bc we got used to. But when Korean and Chinese overtake us there will not be amount of whining that saves us from our low

>Labour is usually 8hrs/day 40hr/week. Bc we got used to. But when Korean and Chinese overtake us there will not be amount of whining that saves us from our lower productivity bc they have a harder mind. I'm with you here. A lot of Silicon Valley workers are used to 35 hour work weeks with extremely inflated salaries. They think just because they know how to write a for loop, they should be treated by kings and queens. And when Chinese and Korean companies outcompete them, they become racist or anti-Asian.

theCrowing 4y ago
We waiting for that moment now for what? 20 years?
- germandiago 4y ago
  You know? Whether we like it or not, an asian is not usually looking at the watch to see when it is time to go. Productivity-wise I think they make some mistakes we westernes do not make, like for example, in communication, because of many cultural things, they tend to not speak out. That is in our advantage to some extent. On the other hand, they are not going to look at the clock and say "hey my contract is 40 hours I am gonna call the union!". Like it or not, this part is destroying us. It is a matter of time. China is already overtaking US in some key areas technology-wise, like electric car (they own also 80% of lithium mines) and other stuff. So if you want to fool yourself... My opinion is that we have been getting steadily worse in values from the fact that we became very comfortable. By this I mean also myself: my parents were better in attitude and my grandparents also. That is how I see it. God forgive me for being politically incorrect and wanting to enslave humanity (probably I would be accused of things like this nowadays in Europe) or something for saying that, but productivity comes from labour.
  - theCrowing 4y ago
    Well let's talk in 20 years again because everything you wrote was written 20 years ago. Nothing ever happens.
    - germandiago 4y ago
      We still have an advantage on some areas, such as communication and a big part of the education. But the level of improvement in Asia is really big already. I do not talk from outside. I have been in Asia for 11 years living. If we do not give a push to our mindsets, we will become irrelevant and that includes leaning on effort and self-reliance and self-improvement, which is what took us here. I see (Europe, dnt know US but from the media looks like kind of the same) a huge amount of rights and whining. I know I will get more negatives for this. I just describe what I see :)
      - theCrowing 4y ago
        You are just repeating the same arguments that were repeated back then. It's like you are running circles around the discussion at hand. Asia will neither overtake the west in worker productivity nor revenue per worker anytime soon if at all. They need to lift way more people out of poverty before it will ever happen. At the moment they are running their economy on scale but as we are seeing now with their housing market, draconian covid lockdowns and governmental regulations, that they are running on fumes with the engine light on.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    >On the other hand, they are not going to look at the clock and say "hey my contract is 40 hours I am gonna call the union!". Like it or not, this part is destroying us. Did you come straight outta 1850? This is not destroying is at all. We used to work this much in the US. We fought against this back when and gained labor rights and had growth and productivity since then along with quality of life. When you bring a country up to a middle class life this happens. Middle class jobs don't get more productive when you do them 80 hours a week rather than 40.
    - germandiago 4y ago
      > Did you come straight outta 1850? > This is not destroying is at all Your outcome comes from two things: from productivity vs payment. That is the same today and in 1850. No law is going to stop that. So, if they are not there yet but they will be and they work more, you can see the outcome? We are quite better at communication IMHO in the westerner world in working environments. And still more productive. But the distance is narrowing. In a scenario where they do not have all those laws and they still keep the "1850 mindset" they will eventually have better products at lower prices. > Middle class jobs don't get more productive when you do them 80 hours a week rather than 40. Data taken from? Of course this depends on the activity, but no matter what you do, there will still be first, secondary and tertiary sectors. Mostly tertiary for developed countries, but you still support from the others... I am not proposing to work 80 hours per week, in fact. I am just giving you awareness of what is coming right now. As long as we have something else to offer it will be ok (I do not think we have much more to offer anymore, that can be sustained in the next 20-30 years unless we do a shift in mindset). The distance is narrowing a lot and that means that at some point... did you see how many strategic sectors around all Europe chinese bought? From harbours to business, etc.?
      - eesmith 4y ago
        > Data taken from? I don't think you're aware that this has been known for over a century. For one example: "Why Crunch Mode Doesn't Work: 6 Lessons" - https://igda.org/resources-archive/why-crunch-mode-doesnt-work-six-lessons-2005/ https://igda.org/resources-archive/why-crunch-mode-doesnt-wo... . ] More than a century of studies show that long-term useful worker output is maximized near a five-day, 40-hour workweek. Productivity drops immediately upon starting overtime and continues to drop until, at approximately eight 60-hour weeks, the total work done is the same as what would have been done in eight 40-hour weeks. ] In the short term, working over 21 hours continuously is equivalent to being legally drunk. Longer periods of continuous work drastically reduce cognitive function and increase the chance of catastrophic error. In both the short- and long-term, reducing sleep hours as little as one hour nightly can result in a severe decrease in cognitive ability, sometimes without workers perceiving the decrease. Or, see the chapter in McConnell's "Rapid Development", at https://archive.org/details/rapiddevelopment00mcco/page/600/mode/2up?q=overtime https://archive.org/details/rapiddevelopment00mcco/page/600/... . Page 601 under "don't require overtime; it will produce less total output" describes why, with pointers. These are specifically speaking to software developers because those are the resources I know best. Programmers aren't special - these factors are generally true for middle-class jobs and manufacturing jobs (as Ford's research showed in the 1920s.) If you believe otherwise, where's your data? BTW, going to work when one isn't able to work at full capacity is called "presenteeism". Some of the ways that overtime can cause presenteeism are: working while tired due to lack of sleep, migraines from stress, feeling pressured to go to work while sick, lower general health and well-being from lack of exercise/fun, and paying bills and doing other personal tasks while at work.
  - culopatin 4y ago
    What are you talking about? Americans are proud of being overworked. They complain-brag about working 50hs and not seeing their kids. They use it both as “look at me I’m NEEDED at work for 800hs a day” and as an excuse to not do healthier things.
    - germandiago 4y ago
      That cannot be healthy, man... true
pixl97 4y ago
I'm not sure about China, but South Korea fertility rate is .8. Planning to work harder than a people group currently going extinct sounds like suicide to me. Life just isn't work, but work is one part of life. Work maximalists seem to forget this.
- germandiago 4y ago
  Well, this is part of my point. Life is not only work, but if you have leading products/economies you stay in a better position. If a whole block overtakes the other as we are legislating better and better conditions to non-end without paying attention to other factors, the fate is clear.
culopatin 4y ago
Why level down? Thinking that working less than 40hs = being royal is that terrible work culture Americans have to make themselves feel better about not being effective and efficient. Some think that being in an office longer equals putting out more product when in reality they are just farting around the office wasting time and keeping everyone else hostage of their poor time management. If I get my project done in 30hs and want to go home, am I royal? Just work harder, smarter, not longer.
PicassoCTs 4y ago
Who cares? The whole ponzi-scheme is coming down in the next 5 years anyway. Climate refugee waves, climate wars, working for worthless money to rent property the old generations pension funds hold hostage to keep the facade up for another year. Why should anyone pour the limited good years they have into this, to appease a lifestyle reality that will be out of stock no matter what? Why try to be part of the kings court and in favor, when they open a head bowling alley on the place de concorde? I really do not get the appeal of this self-hypnotizing mindset. Do you think one can will reality into a different shape, by the powers of believe alone? China is coming undone as we write. Go home, schedule a meetup with your parents, family, friend, anyone. Hold your loved ones, while the world goes. This party is over.

theCrowing 4y ago

We waiting for that moment now for what? 20 years?

germandiago 4y ago
You know? Whether we like it or not, an asian is not usually looking at the watch to see when it is time to go. Productivity-wise I think they make some mistakes we westernes do not make, like for example, in communication, because of many cultural things, they tend to not speak out. That is in our advantage to some extent. On the other hand, they are not going to look at the clock and say "hey my contract is 40 hours I am gonna call the union!". Like it or not, this part is destroying us. It is a matter of time. China is already overtaking US in some key areas technology-wise, like electric car (they own also 80% of lithium mines) and other stuff. So if you want to fool yourself... My opinion is that we have been getting steadily worse in values from the fact that we became very comfortable. By this I mean also myself: my parents were better in attitude and my grandparents also. That is how I see it. God forgive me for being politically incorrect and wanting to enslave humanity (probably I would be accused of things like this nowadays in Europe) or something for saying that, but productivity comes from labour.
- theCrowing 4y ago
  Well let's talk in 20 years again because everything you wrote was written 20 years ago. Nothing ever happens.
  - germandiago 4y ago
    We still have an advantage on some areas, such as communication and a big part of the education. But the level of improvement in Asia is really big already. I do not talk from outside. I have been in Asia for 11 years living. If we do not give a push to our mindsets, we will become irrelevant and that includes leaning on effort and self-reliance and self-improvement, which is what took us here. I see (Europe, dnt know US but from the media looks like kind of the same) a huge amount of rights and whining. I know I will get more negatives for this. I just describe what I see :)
    - theCrowing 4y ago
      You are just repeating the same arguments that were repeated back then. It's like you are running circles around the discussion at hand. Asia will neither overtake the west in worker productivity nor revenue per worker anytime soon if at all. They need to lift way more people out of poverty before it will ever happen. At the moment they are running their economy on scale but as we are seeing now with their housing market, draconian covid lockdowns and governmental regulations, that they are running on fumes with the engine light on.
- pixl97 4y ago
  >On the other hand, they are not going to look at the clock and say "hey my contract is 40 hours I am gonna call the union!". Like it or not, this part is destroying us. Did you come straight outta 1850? This is not destroying is at all. We used to work this much in the US. We fought against this back when and gained labor rights and had growth and productivity since then along with quality of life. When you bring a country up to a middle class life this happens. Middle class jobs don't get more productive when you do them 80 hours a week rather than 40.
  - germandiago 4y ago
    > Did you come straight outta 1850? > This is not destroying is at all Your outcome comes from two things: from productivity vs payment. That is the same today and in 1850. No law is going to stop that. So, if they are not there yet but they will be and they work more, you can see the outcome? We are quite better at communication IMHO in the westerner world in working environments. And still more productive. But the distance is narrowing. In a scenario where they do not have all those laws and they still keep the "1850 mindset" they will eventually have better products at lower prices. > Middle class jobs don't get more productive when you do them 80 hours a week rather than 40. Data taken from? Of course this depends on the activity, but no matter what you do, there will still be first, secondary and tertiary sectors. Mostly tertiary for developed countries, but you still support from the others... I am not proposing to work 80 hours per week, in fact. I am just giving you awareness of what is coming right now. As long as we have something else to offer it will be ok (I do not think we have much more to offer anymore, that can be sustained in the next 20-30 years unless we do a shift in mindset). The distance is narrowing a lot and that means that at some point... did you see how many strategic sectors around all Europe chinese bought? From harbours to business, etc.?
    - eesmith 4y ago
      > Data taken from? I don't think you're aware that this has been known for over a century. For one example: "Why Crunch Mode Doesn't Work: 6 Lessons" - https://igda.org/resources-archive/why-crunch-mode-doesnt-work-six-lessons-2005/ https://igda.org/resources-archive/why-crunch-mode-doesnt-wo... . ] More than a century of studies show that long-term useful worker output is maximized near a five-day, 40-hour workweek. Productivity drops immediately upon starting overtime and continues to drop until, at approximately eight 60-hour weeks, the total work done is the same as what would have been done in eight 40-hour weeks. ] In the short term, working over 21 hours continuously is equivalent to being legally drunk. Longer periods of continuous work drastically reduce cognitive function and increase the chance of catastrophic error. In both the short- and long-term, reducing sleep hours as little as one hour nightly can result in a severe decrease in cognitive ability, sometimes without workers perceiving the decrease. Or, see the chapter in McConnell's "Rapid Development", at https://archive.org/details/rapiddevelopment00mcco/page/600/mode/2up?q=overtime https://archive.org/details/rapiddevelopment00mcco/page/600/... . Page 601 under "don't require overtime; it will produce less total output" describes why, with pointers. These are specifically speaking to software developers because those are the resources I know best. Programmers aren't special - these factors are generally true for middle-class jobs and manufacturing jobs (as Ford's research showed in the 1920s.) If you believe otherwise, where's your data? BTW, going to work when one isn't able to work at full capacity is called "presenteeism". Some of the ways that overtime can cause presenteeism are: working while tired due to lack of sleep, migraines from stress, feeling pressured to go to work while sick, lower general health and well-being from lack of exercise/fun, and paying bills and doing other personal tasks while at work.
- culopatin 4y ago
  What are you talking about? Americans are proud of being overworked. They complain-brag about working 50hs and not seeing their kids. They use it both as “look at me I’m NEEDED at work for 800hs a day” and as an excuse to not do healthier things.
  - germandiago 4y ago
    That cannot be healthy, man... true

pixl97 4y ago

I'm not sure about China, but South Korea fertility rate is .8. Planning to work harder than a people group currently going extinct sounds like suicide to me. Life just isn't work, but work is one part of life. Work maximalists seem to forget this.

germandiago 4y ago
Well, this is part of my point. Life is not only work, but if you have leading products/economies you stay in a better position. If a whole block overtakes the other as we are legislating better and better conditions to non-end without paying attention to other factors, the fate is clear.

culopatin 4y ago

Why level down? Thinking that working less than 40hs = being royal is that terrible work culture Americans have to make themselves feel better about not being effective and efficient. Some think that being in an office longer equals putting out more product when in reality they are just farting around the office wasting time and keeping everyone else hostage of their poor time management. If I get my project done in 30hs and want to go home, am I royal? Just work harder, smarter, not longer.

PicassoCTs 4y ago

Who cares? The whole ponzi-scheme is coming down in the next 5 years anyway. Climate refugee waves, climate wars, working for worthless money to rent property the old generations pension funds hold hostage to keep the facade up for another year. Why should anyone pour the limited good years they have into this, to appease a lifestyle reality that will be out of stock no matter what? Why try to be part of the kings court and in favor, when they open a head bowling alley on the place de concorde? I really do not get the appeal of this self-hypnotizing mindset. Do you think one can will reality into a different shape, by the powers of believe alone? China is coming undone as we write. Go home, schedule a meetup with your parents, family, friend, anyone. Hold your loved ones, while the world goes. This party is over.