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Murray Rothbard waited a decade to get his PhD. His supervisor didn't like his politics and never let him graduate. Rothbard had to sneak in and graduate after

Murray Rothbard waited a decade to get his PhD. His supervisor didn't like his politics and never let him graduate. Rothbard had to sneak in and graduate after his supervisor left to join the Eisenhower administration. I'm surprised that PhDs aren't further abused. Your multi-year investment can be taken away at any time on a whim at your supervisor's discretion. It's a great deal of discretionary power.

club_tropical 4y ago
I am toying with the idea of going to grad school, especially law, but with zero careerist ambitions, so nothing can be lorded over me.
q-big 4y ago
> Your multi-year investment can be taken away at any time on a whim at your supervisor's discretion. I disagree: I often say that the true value of the PhD/doctoral studies is that you have the opportunity to work on deep questions/problems on the boundary of human knowledge that you won't find anywhere else. The PhD or doctoral degree is just an icing on the cake that you will get at the end. If you do your PhD/doctoral studies for the degree on your business care, you will, in my opinion, not be happy. Better look for a career elsewhere since if you are not insanely passionate about the scientific topics that you work on, PhD/doctoral studies will become a nightmare for you. Before starting a PhD/doctoral program, you should ask yourself: is there anything that you would desire more than working 14 hours a day, 7 days a week on your research topic? If the answer is yes, you have, in my opinion, either not the character traits necessary for science or at least a topic of research that is a bad fit for you.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Bull. Plenty of excellent science is done by people who aren’t working 90 hour weeks under slave driving advisors. Incredible workaholism is not a “necessary” characteristic of a useful researcher. It just isn’t. This is a story that people tell themselves to allow them to abuse others or be abused. Research is a job like any other. Your work will still be there on Monday if you do other things over the weekend.
  - q-big 4y ago
    > Incredible workaholism is not a “necessary” characteristic of a useful researcher. Formally, workaholism might not be necessary to be a useful researcher. But it helps a huge lot.
    - UncleMeat 4y ago
      Sure, it can help. You'll advance in a lot of careers if you work more than 100% more hours than your peers. And if you are aiming for a good faculty position then a massive volume of papers is indeed expected nowadays. You might even perform more good science than your peers. But that doesn't mean that your lab mate who is working sane hours isn't producing useful research that contributes to the community. Telling people that they simply don't have the personality to do science if they aren't allowing themselves to be abused is unhealthy.
      - q-big 4y ago
        > Telling people that they simply don't have the personality to do science if they aren't allowing themselves to be abused is unhealthy. The purpose of a PhD/doctoral degree is to boostrap a career in science. The positions there are highly competitive (not to mention that few tenure track and tenure positions that are available). If you don't work insanely hard, you are out. Better tell people the harsh truth upfront instead of this insane feel-good and you-can-do-it nonsense, which often sooner than later leads to the problem that students are not prepared for the hard reality that they will get to see.
        UncleMeat 4y ago
        > The purpose of a PhD/doctoral degree is to boostrap a career in science. It can be. I like to think that the doing science part is also valuable and that people can still contribute meaningfully to the world even if they come out the other side without a R1 faculty position. I like to think that my research ended up that way. > If you don't work insanely hard, you are out. I'm very good friends with a CS professor at MIT who didn't work unreasonable hours in grad school. Working incredibly long hours probably increases the chances of this sort of outcome and you are indeed competing with a lot of people for very few jobs. People should be aware of the low success rate in the PhD -> R1 TT faculty pipeline. People should make informed decisions when attending a PhD program. But it is absolutely not the case that people are simply unable to produce good science if they aren't willing to spend their entire lives in the lab.

club_tropical 4y ago

I am toying with the idea of going to grad school, especially law, but with zero careerist ambitions, so nothing can be lorded over me.

q-big 4y ago

> Your multi-year investment can be taken away at any time on a whim at your supervisor's discretion. I disagree: I often say that the true value of the PhD/doctoral studies is that you have the opportunity to work on deep questions/problems on the boundary of human knowledge that you won't find anywhere else. The PhD or doctoral degree is just an icing on the cake that you will get at the end. If you do your PhD/doctoral studies for the degree on your business care, you will, in my opinion, not be happy. Better look for a career elsewhere since if you are not insanely passionate about the scientific topics that you work on, PhD/doctoral studies will become a nightmare for you. Before starting a PhD/doctoral program, you should ask yourself: is there anything that you would desire more than working 14 hours a day, 7 days a week on your research topic? If the answer is yes, you have, in my opinion, either not the character traits necessary for science or at least a topic of research that is a bad fit for you.

UncleMeat 4y ago
Bull. Plenty of excellent science is done by people who aren’t working 90 hour weeks under slave driving advisors. Incredible workaholism is not a “necessary” characteristic of a useful researcher. It just isn’t. This is a story that people tell themselves to allow them to abuse others or be abused. Research is a job like any other. Your work will still be there on Monday if you do other things over the weekend.
- q-big 4y ago
  > Incredible workaholism is not a “necessary” characteristic of a useful researcher. Formally, workaholism might not be necessary to be a useful researcher. But it helps a huge lot.
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    Sure, it can help. You'll advance in a lot of careers if you work more than 100% more hours than your peers. And if you are aiming for a good faculty position then a massive volume of papers is indeed expected nowadays. You might even perform more good science than your peers. But that doesn't mean that your lab mate who is working sane hours isn't producing useful research that contributes to the community. Telling people that they simply don't have the personality to do science if they aren't allowing themselves to be abused is unhealthy.
    - q-big 4y ago
      > Telling people that they simply don't have the personality to do science if they aren't allowing themselves to be abused is unhealthy. The purpose of a PhD/doctoral degree is to boostrap a career in science. The positions there are highly competitive (not to mention that few tenure track and tenure positions that are available). If you don't work insanely hard, you are out. Better tell people the harsh truth upfront instead of this insane feel-good and you-can-do-it nonsense, which often sooner than later leads to the problem that students are not prepared for the hard reality that they will get to see.
      - UncleMeat 4y ago
        > The purpose of a PhD/doctoral degree is to boostrap a career in science. It can be. I like to think that the doing science part is also valuable and that people can still contribute meaningfully to the world even if they come out the other side without a R1 faculty position. I like to think that my research ended up that way. > If you don't work insanely hard, you are out. I'm very good friends with a CS professor at MIT who didn't work unreasonable hours in grad school. Working incredibly long hours probably increases the chances of this sort of outcome and you are indeed competing with a lot of people for very few jobs. People should be aware of the low success rate in the PhD -> R1 TT faculty pipeline. People should make informed decisions when attending a PhD program. But it is absolutely not the case that people are simply unable to produce good science if they aren't willing to spend their entire lives in the lab.