6 ms·

Firstly, its surprising that this school allows what would apparently be the lay public gain access to human anatomical gifts. In Canada, this is restricted to

Firstly, its surprising that this school allows what would apparently be the lay public gain access to human anatomical gifts. In Canada, this is restricted to persons with a legitimate interest, ie med students and grad students in bioengineering/bio-adjacent fields. I think that the author is not an individual with such an interest was quite clear from the tone taken on this piece - most discussions involving cadavers are quite respectful of the fact that they are working on the mortal remains of a person; for some reason the way this piece was written felt almost disrespectful.

danielheath 4y ago
> most discussions involving cadavers are quite respectful of the fact that they are working on the mortal remains of a person Not that I know first-hand, but that's not the impression I got from the med students when I was at uni. People find all sorts of odd ways to cope with their own mortality, and getting reminded of it tends to bring those to the fore.
- m-p-3 4y ago
  I participated in a dissection (ex med tech in the Canadian Forces) and the impression that I got is that the room was filled with respect, with everyone being careful to keep the dignity of the cadavers intact at all time.
- rubatuga 4y ago
  First-hand, every session that involved cadavers during medical school was very respectful. We were told not to take photos as well. Worst part was the smell of formalin. Humour is fine, assuming the person/cadaver would have been okay with it (and quite a few of the older patients I've met joke about their mortality). But I would rather be respectful and play it safe.
  - criddell 4y ago
    Does very respectful mean no dark humor?
    - mattkrause 4y ago
      My experience was that boisterous shenanigans, like juggling testicles or something, would absolutely not have been tolerated. Indeed, the mood was somber/business-like enough that no one even dared. On the other hand, a whispered inoffensive remark to your lab partner would be okay. Something this like this would probably be okay: -- "Be careful not to nick the nerve as you <whatever>" -- "Opps! Better now? -- "Yes. In fairness, it's not her biggest problem right now"
  - bookofjoe 4y ago
    Yes — the smell of the formalin! In 1970-71, my first year at UCLA med school, we spent four (4) hours 4 (four) days a week in the gross anatomy lab. First semester was below the neck, second semester just the head and neck. Fascinating; I enjoyed everything about dissecting our (4 students/body) corpse. The only bad thing was the smell of the formalin: it was SO strong that my eyes would water every session: they/I never got used to it. My "Grant's Anatomy" textbook, which was propped up on the cadaver tank every session to guide me, still stunk of formalin 40+ years later, so much so that much as I enjoyed having it as a memory of something I did that was really hard, I threw it away around 2010 because it made every closet or cabinet or drawer I put it in reek. I suspect ventilation in the dissection room (120 students/30 cadavers) 52 years ago was WAY worse than it is today. I'm surprised I'm not brain dead from inhaling superstrong formalin vapor 16 hours/week x 16 weeks/semester x 2 semesters = for roughly 500 hours that year. Maybe I am brain dead!
  - type0 4y ago
    > Worst part was the smell of formalin. You should eat Serrano ham sandwich afterwards, that just about cures it /s
    - thomasfedb 4y ago
      The formalin smell and hunger are such a weird trip in the lab. Good lunch before was key in my opinion.
- the_af 4y ago
  My brother, when he attended his anatomy classes, told me the med students were very playful and joked all the time. A coping mechanism, perhaps? I think it's understandable, but respectful they were not. For example, they called one of the corpses "blondie"... and she was headless. Let that one sink in.
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    Interesting that the stories about disrespectful behavior are always a friend of a friend and not the medical students themselves. I suspect a majority of these second hand stories of casual disrespect are a combination of a game of telephone and unreliable narrative bluster from young medical students confronting their own mortality for possibly the first time in their lives. Every story from someone with direct experience seems to be respectful.
    - the_af 4y ago
      No. This is first hand experience by my brother during anatomy classes. He was a student and one of the jokers, too. He said this behavior was pretty common, and he took part in it. Disrespectful/joking behavior behind the scenes is not too rare with doctors, either. I have doctor friends who attest to this, as in, they engage in this behavior (so again, no game of telephone here). Never in front of the patient, since that would be rude and unacceptable, but privately with other physicians? You bet.
      - type0 4y ago
        I had overheard some dentists joking recently, that was so discussing than even proctologists couldn't say such jokes.
      - idiotsecant 4y ago
        You get that this is exactly the scenario I just described, right?
        the_af 4y ago
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  Others demanding a "respectful" treatment, usually mean, that handling, diposal and research on remains, should be treated by a seperate group of persons. One which they usually shun socially, should they ever talk about or discuss there work or parts of it. So the respectful treatment, is actually code for "I do not want to talk about that, or engage with that, unless i must." Meanwhile, pathology is such a interesting science. Especially the quite visual signs of self inflicted decay due to substance abuse or bad living conditions are very hands on. Also the realization, that the body is a self deprecating machine, adapting to all circumstances. Great german book on famous dead people and the source of there demise: https://www.amazon.de/Woran-sie-wirklich-starben-Pers%C3%B6nlichkeiten/dp/3851758145 https://www.amazon.de/Woran-sie-wirklich-starben-Pers%C3%B6n...
- kendallpark 4y ago
  Speaking from first-hand, I can't remember any disrespectful behavior. Acting disrespectful toward the donor (what we called the cadavers) would get you kicked out of anatomy lab. There is even a "gift of body" ceremony commemorating the donations every year that family members can attend. Med students will speak about how the donors impacted their medical education and how much they appreciate them. I would hope that tales of inappropriate jokes of posing with body parts are relegated to a bygone era. Fwiw I would have no issue donating my body to my institution for dissection. I certainly benefited from the donation. Some notable memories: - The brittleness and crunchiness of an atherosclerotic artery compared to the pliable rubber hose of a healthy artery - How incredibly soft lungs are -- like a tempur-pedic pillow. Unless the donor had been a smoker. Then the lungs were hard and black-spotted like a pumice stone. - The muscular atrophy of old age. There were some donors whose abdominal muscles were as thin as paper. - Holding a donors brain in one's hand (it's smaller than one would expect). In the words of a lab partner, "I can't believe we are holding everything that made this person a person, all their personality, everything."
  - Buttons840 4y ago
    > Holding a donors brain in one's hand (it's smaller than one would expect). In the words of a lab partner, "I can't believe we are holding everything that made this person a person, all their personality, everything." Thought provoking. I'll keep this in mind while holding a hundred billion apples during lunch. ;) From another angle, I would argue that the eyes and face are part of what makes a human, as are the hands. And there's also something in the brain that has been lost, something beyond mere physical matter. An easy example of this is a puzzle, if you're putting a puzzle together, and I come in and mix it up, I've taken something from you, and yet I took no material object away. There's probably some organization that's part of our brain and "humanity" that is lost at death. I'm not talking about religious "spirit" here - back to the puzzle, it has no spirit, but an assembled puzzle is more than the physical material it is made of. I don't mean to be super critical of your lab partner, just sharing some additional philosophical views.
    - kendallpark 4y ago
- spookthesunset 4y ago
  If you want to listen to the dark/shady side of the body broker business check out this swindled podcast. These dudes were chopping up bodies and storing parts in buckets, warm coolers, you name it. It’s quite a listen! https://swindledpodcast.com/podcast/84-the-body-broker/ https://swindledpodcast.com/podcast/84-the-body-broker/
JusticeJuice 4y ago
Yeah, it's stuff like this that makes me not want to donate my body to science.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cedricgle 4y ago
  Well don't donate your body to France [1]. Some witness even alleged the medical team played football with people heads. [1] https://ca.movies.yahoo.com/french-academic-charged-over-mass-154516367.html?guccounter=1 https://ca.movies.yahoo.com/french-academic-charged-over-mas...
  - minimal-o 4y ago
    Yikes! I hope that was a corner, nee coroner, case, but it would not surprise me. My mother was a student nurse in the 40's. In the U.S. for context. She told me of corpses floating in a big tub, or vat, at uni, and that they had to take them out and dissect them for class. She didn't mention any peculiar schenanigans as you describe and I am glad she did not.
    - giardini 4y ago
      shenanigans (no "c").
      - minimal-o 4y ago
        Good catch. Thank you.
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    My sister (a doctor) told us of a few rather unsavory incidents that happened with body parts during her time at medical school. Its pretty common tbh.
- the_af 4y ago
jstanley 4y ago
In what way is the OP's interest in dissecting cadavers not "legitimate"?
- codingdave 4y ago
  They don't seem to be doing this to pursue anything other than personal curiosity. And fairly light-hearted curiosity at that -- the tone of the article, to me, sounds more like, "Ooh, nerves are neat!" than someone trying to build a body of knowledge for a larger purpose. I'm not going to go so far to say that only med students should have access to cadavers... but this article does feel like a rando just cutting someone up for fun, and that feels a bit off to me.
  - drakonka 4y ago
    When you say it now I see what you mean, but when first reading the article I read of it more as awe and the act of understanding humanity on a deeper level - a physical level of course, but also transcendent somehow. I don't know if that makes sense... When I look back at it having read your comment, I also doubt my initial more generous view of the situation.
  - est31 4y ago
    The person being cut up is not hurt, they gave their consent to be cut up. So why should third parties intervene? Of course if there is a shortage of dead bodies, medical students should be prioritized, but why not also open it to everyone. In fact, it is better IMO to have this regulated by universities as those will help with maximizing the learning, and ensure it happens in a respecting environment.
  - ohwellhere 4y ago
    It's funny how differently people can read things, and how different contexts color our impressions. On most topics, this community mostly values pursuing personal curiosity even if it's not for a larger purpose. We never know where we will find larger purposes, after all! And following interest and desire is generally a valued habit. I didn't get the impression they were a rando "cutting someone up for fun" (note "someone"). I did get the impression they were a rando who wanted to know more about the human body, with a particular interest in the nervous system likely from a career in AI/ML. Note how the author has a better appreciation for the effects of disease, for the effects of exercise, and how they had intuitional leaps around brain structure and its applicability to ML as well as nascent intuition around the importance of social systems to evolution. Personally I'm really glad that these opportunities exist. Most bodies become ash or sit rotting unnaturally slowly. This is a better use, even for lay people with idle curiosity.
thenerdhead 4y ago
Many medical students have their cadaver stories that have similar intrusive thoughts. Some of those thoughts were shared out loud and definitely come off as ignorant due to the curiosity of the writer. There's a book I read recently "When Breath Becomes Air" that talks about this rite of passage and the "respect" for mortality that isn't always shared by first year med students.
martopix 4y ago
Many universities, at least in Europe, allow you to sign up to individual modules/exams. This is usually used by people who want to get ahead and study stuff before they actually sign up to a degree, but anyone can do it. At that point, the author would have been a student of that class like any other.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Hnrobert42 4y ago
Interesting. I did not take the author’s tone in a disrespectful way. It wasn’t solemn, but it wasn’t flippant. It appeared they had a genuine desire to learn about the body. That seems just as noble as a med student who isn’t really interested in medicine beyond a job that makes money and their parents happy.
Sporktacular 4y ago
Exactly. I always understood you could allow your remains to be used for organ donation or for science. Not for some entertainment before Friday drinks. May be no worse than the way some med students treat donated bodies, but that doesn't make it any better.

danielheath 4y ago

> most discussions involving cadavers are quite respectful of the fact that they are working on the mortal remains of a person Not that I know first-hand, but that's not the impression I got from the med students when I was at uni. People find all sorts of odd ways to cope with their own mortality, and getting reminded of it tends to bring those to the fore.

m-p-3 4y ago
I participated in a dissection (ex med tech in the Canadian Forces) and the impression that I got is that the room was filled with respect, with everyone being careful to keep the dignity of the cadavers intact at all time.
rubatuga 4y ago
First-hand, every session that involved cadavers during medical school was very respectful. We were told not to take photos as well. Worst part was the smell of formalin. Humour is fine, assuming the person/cadaver would have been okay with it (and quite a few of the older patients I've met joke about their mortality). But I would rather be respectful and play it safe.
- criddell 4y ago
  Does very respectful mean no dark humor?
  - mattkrause 4y ago
    My experience was that boisterous shenanigans, like juggling testicles or something, would absolutely not have been tolerated. Indeed, the mood was somber/business-like enough that no one even dared. On the other hand, a whispered inoffensive remark to your lab partner would be okay. Something this like this would probably be okay: -- "Be careful not to nick the nerve as you <whatever>" -- "Opps! Better now? -- "Yes. In fairness, it's not her biggest problem right now"
- bookofjoe 4y ago
  Yes — the smell of the formalin! In 1970-71, my first year at UCLA med school, we spent four (4) hours 4 (four) days a week in the gross anatomy lab. First semester was below the neck, second semester just the head and neck. Fascinating; I enjoyed everything about dissecting our (4 students/body) corpse. The only bad thing was the smell of the formalin: it was SO strong that my eyes would water every session: they/I never got used to it. My "Grant's Anatomy" textbook, which was propped up on the cadaver tank every session to guide me, still stunk of formalin 40+ years later, so much so that much as I enjoyed having it as a memory of something I did that was really hard, I threw it away around 2010 because it made every closet or cabinet or drawer I put it in reek. I suspect ventilation in the dissection room (120 students/30 cadavers) 52 years ago was WAY worse than it is today. I'm surprised I'm not brain dead from inhaling superstrong formalin vapor 16 hours/week x 16 weeks/semester x 2 semesters = for roughly 500 hours that year. Maybe I am brain dead!
- type0 4y ago
  > Worst part was the smell of formalin. You should eat Serrano ham sandwich afterwards, that just about cures it /s
  - thomasfedb 4y ago
    The formalin smell and hunger are such a weird trip in the lab. Good lunch before was key in my opinion.
the_af 4y ago
My brother, when he attended his anatomy classes, told me the med students were very playful and joked all the time. A coping mechanism, perhaps? I think it's understandable, but respectful they were not. For example, they called one of the corpses "blondie"... and she was headless. Let that one sink in.
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  Interesting that the stories about disrespectful behavior are always a friend of a friend and not the medical students themselves. I suspect a majority of these second hand stories of casual disrespect are a combination of a game of telephone and unreliable narrative bluster from young medical students confronting their own mortality for possibly the first time in their lives. Every story from someone with direct experience seems to be respectful.
  - the_af 4y ago
    No. This is first hand experience by my brother during anatomy classes. He was a student and one of the jokers, too. He said this behavior was pretty common, and he took part in it. Disrespectful/joking behavior behind the scenes is not too rare with doctors, either. I have doctor friends who attest to this, as in, they engage in this behavior (so again, no game of telephone here). Never in front of the patient, since that would be rude and unacceptable, but privately with other physicians? You bet.
    - type0 4y ago
      I had overheard some dentists joking recently, that was so discussing than even proctologists couldn't say such jokes.
    - idiotsecant 4y ago
      You get that this is exactly the scenario I just described, right?
      - the_af 4y ago
qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
Others demanding a "respectful" treatment, usually mean, that handling, diposal and research on remains, should be treated by a seperate group of persons. One which they usually shun socially, should they ever talk about or discuss there work or parts of it. So the respectful treatment, is actually code for "I do not want to talk about that, or engage with that, unless i must." Meanwhile, pathology is such a interesting science. Especially the quite visual signs of self inflicted decay due to substance abuse or bad living conditions are very hands on. Also the realization, that the body is a self deprecating machine, adapting to all circumstances. Great german book on famous dead people and the source of there demise: https://www.amazon.de/Woran-sie-wirklich-starben-Pers%C3%B6nlichkeiten/dp/3851758145 https://www.amazon.de/Woran-sie-wirklich-starben-Pers%C3%B6n...
kendallpark 4y ago
Speaking from first-hand, I can't remember any disrespectful behavior. Acting disrespectful toward the donor (what we called the cadavers) would get you kicked out of anatomy lab. There is even a "gift of body" ceremony commemorating the donations every year that family members can attend. Med students will speak about how the donors impacted their medical education and how much they appreciate them. I would hope that tales of inappropriate jokes of posing with body parts are relegated to a bygone era. Fwiw I would have no issue donating my body to my institution for dissection. I certainly benefited from the donation. Some notable memories: - The brittleness and crunchiness of an atherosclerotic artery compared to the pliable rubber hose of a healthy artery - How incredibly soft lungs are -- like a tempur-pedic pillow. Unless the donor had been a smoker. Then the lungs were hard and black-spotted like a pumice stone. - The muscular atrophy of old age. There were some donors whose abdominal muscles were as thin as paper. - Holding a donors brain in one's hand (it's smaller than one would expect). In the words of a lab partner, "I can't believe we are holding everything that made this person a person, all their personality, everything."
- Buttons840 4y ago
  > Holding a donors brain in one's hand (it's smaller than one would expect). In the words of a lab partner, "I can't believe we are holding everything that made this person a person, all their personality, everything." Thought provoking. I'll keep this in mind while holding a hundred billion apples during lunch. ;) From another angle, I would argue that the eyes and face are part of what makes a human, as are the hands. And there's also something in the brain that has been lost, something beyond mere physical matter. An easy example of this is a puzzle, if you're putting a puzzle together, and I come in and mix it up, I've taken something from you, and yet I took no material object away. There's probably some organization that's part of our brain and "humanity" that is lost at death. I'm not talking about religious "spirit" here - back to the puzzle, it has no spirit, but an assembled puzzle is more than the physical material it is made of. I don't mean to be super critical of your lab partner, just sharing some additional philosophical views.
  - kendallpark 4y ago
spookthesunset 4y ago
If you want to listen to the dark/shady side of the body broker business check out this swindled podcast. These dudes were chopping up bodies and storing parts in buckets, warm coolers, you name it. It’s quite a listen! https://swindledpodcast.com/podcast/84-the-body-broker/ https://swindledpodcast.com/podcast/84-the-body-broker/

JusticeJuice 4y ago

Yeah, it's stuff like this that makes me not want to donate my body to science.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cedricgle 4y ago
Well don't donate your body to France [1]. Some witness even alleged the medical team played football with people heads. [1] https://ca.movies.yahoo.com/french-academic-charged-over-mass-154516367.html?guccounter=1 https://ca.movies.yahoo.com/french-academic-charged-over-mas...
- minimal-o 4y ago
  Yikes! I hope that was a corner, nee coroner, case, but it would not surprise me. My mother was a student nurse in the 40's. In the U.S. for context. She told me of corpses floating in a big tub, or vat, at uni, and that they had to take them out and dissect them for class. She didn't mention any peculiar schenanigans as you describe and I am glad she did not.
  - giardini 4y ago
    shenanigans (no "c").
    - minimal-o 4y ago
      Good catch. Thank you.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  My sister (a doctor) told us of a few rather unsavory incidents that happened with body parts during her time at medical school. Its pretty common tbh.
the_af 4y ago

jstanley 4y ago

In what way is the OP's interest in dissecting cadavers not "legitimate"?

codingdave 4y ago
They don't seem to be doing this to pursue anything other than personal curiosity. And fairly light-hearted curiosity at that -- the tone of the article, to me, sounds more like, "Ooh, nerves are neat!" than someone trying to build a body of knowledge for a larger purpose. I'm not going to go so far to say that only med students should have access to cadavers... but this article does feel like a rando just cutting someone up for fun, and that feels a bit off to me.
- drakonka 4y ago
  When you say it now I see what you mean, but when first reading the article I read of it more as awe and the act of understanding humanity on a deeper level - a physical level of course, but also transcendent somehow. I don't know if that makes sense... When I look back at it having read your comment, I also doubt my initial more generous view of the situation.
- est31 4y ago
  The person being cut up is not hurt, they gave their consent to be cut up. So why should third parties intervene? Of course if there is a shortage of dead bodies, medical students should be prioritized, but why not also open it to everyone. In fact, it is better IMO to have this regulated by universities as those will help with maximizing the learning, and ensure it happens in a respecting environment.
- ohwellhere 4y ago
  It's funny how differently people can read things, and how different contexts color our impressions. On most topics, this community mostly values pursuing personal curiosity even if it's not for a larger purpose. We never know where we will find larger purposes, after all! And following interest and desire is generally a valued habit. I didn't get the impression they were a rando "cutting someone up for fun" (note "someone"). I did get the impression they were a rando who wanted to know more about the human body, with a particular interest in the nervous system likely from a career in AI/ML. Note how the author has a better appreciation for the effects of disease, for the effects of exercise, and how they had intuitional leaps around brain structure and its applicability to ML as well as nascent intuition around the importance of social systems to evolution. Personally I'm really glad that these opportunities exist. Most bodies become ash or sit rotting unnaturally slowly. This is a better use, even for lay people with idle curiosity.

thenerdhead 4y ago

Many medical students have their cadaver stories that have similar intrusive thoughts. Some of those thoughts were shared out loud and definitely come off as ignorant due to the curiosity of the writer. There's a book I read recently "When Breath Becomes Air" that talks about this rite of passage and the "respect" for mortality that isn't always shared by first year med students.

martopix 4y ago

Many universities, at least in Europe, allow you to sign up to individual modules/exams. This is usually used by people who want to get ahead and study stuff before they actually sign up to a degree, but anyone can do it. At that point, the author would have been a student of that class like any other.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Hnrobert42 4y ago

Interesting. I did not take the author’s tone in a disrespectful way. It wasn’t solemn, but it wasn’t flippant. It appeared they had a genuine desire to learn about the body. That seems just as noble as a med student who isn’t really interested in medicine beyond a job that makes money and their parents happy.

Sporktacular 4y ago

Exactly. I always understood you could allow your remains to be used for organ donation or for science. Not for some entertainment before Friday drinks. May be no worse than the way some med students treat donated bodies, but that doesn't make it any better.