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- uses vast amounts of energy Bank branches, ATMs, armored cars, computer systems for the banks, computer systems for card processors, credit rating firms, etc

- uses vast amounts of energy Bank branches, ATMs, armored cars, computer systems for the banks, computer systems for card processors, credit rating firms, etc. Bitcoin replaces all of that and, comparatively, for significantly less energy. This is a surface-level argument intended for shortsighted thinkers. - can only process a few TPS - confirms slowly On main net. Lightning network can outpace Visa. - has limited quantities which warps economies By warp, you actually mean makes them fair and natural. It encourages free trade, merit, and competition. Not fiendish scamming and Machiavellianism. - is irreversible in cases of theft or fraud Which is good. It increases the need for reliable actors in the world and creates a citizenry that's more discerning about whom they spend their money with (i.e., building strong, trustworthy relationships). - is lost forever if you lose your keys Which is good. It makes you value it. If I hold all of my money in cash and have a house fire, it's lost forever. No difference. > For those of us who do not fetishize decentralisation Slaves?

Nursie 4y ago
> Bitcoin replaces all of that No, it doesn't, it doesn't offer 1% of the services those things you mentioned can offer. > This is a surface-level argument intended for shortsighted thinkers. Yes, that describes your argument perfectly. > On main net. Lightning network can outpace Visa. The fact the lightning network needs to exist shows flaws in bitcoin, or lightning wouldn't be required. Lightning also has massive flaws and is unlikely to be able to scale very far due to routing issues, and requiring the locking of funds. Its main utility seems to be for people to handwave away problems with bitcoin. > By warp, you actually mean makes them fair and natural. No, we have a lot of history to show us currency that is in limited amounts is a very poor idea, favouring and rewarding those who hold the tokens over those who actually produce. > Which is good. It makes you value it. If I hold all of my money in cash and have a house fire, it's lost forever. No difference. Wow. This is why people don't do that, and use banks, precisely to avoid that sort of catastrophic loss. Though you've just told us in previous comments that you shouldn't trust crypto custodial services either. You're basically saying "this is a huge risk and in my perfect system you just have to live with it, and there's no recourse if it goes wrong and it's your fault" No thanks! > Slaves? Yeah, this is idealogical nonsense at this point, not any sort of reasoned debate. But regardless of whether you agree with the points I raise, the idea that bitcoin is 'perfect' doesn't really hold up. The huge energy use is not a desirable feature for a monetary system, one that is 'perfect' would not have that. Perhaps we cannot create such a 'perfect' system, perhaps (and this is not my view, obviously) bitcoin is the absolute best we can ever do(!), it's still not 'perfect', because it encompasses a set of compromises.
- rglover 4y ago
  Cool, take care.

Nursie 4y ago

> Bitcoin replaces all of that No, it doesn't, it doesn't offer 1% of the services those things you mentioned can offer. > This is a surface-level argument intended for shortsighted thinkers. Yes, that describes your argument perfectly. > On main net. Lightning network can outpace Visa. The fact the lightning network needs to exist shows flaws in bitcoin, or lightning wouldn't be required. Lightning also has massive flaws and is unlikely to be able to scale very far due to routing issues, and requiring the locking of funds. Its main utility seems to be for people to handwave away problems with bitcoin. > By warp, you actually mean makes them fair and natural. No, we have a lot of history to show us currency that is in limited amounts is a very poor idea, favouring and rewarding those who hold the tokens over those who actually produce. > Which is good. It makes you value it. If I hold all of my money in cash and have a house fire, it's lost forever. No difference. Wow. This is why people don't do that, and use banks, precisely to avoid that sort of catastrophic loss. Though you've just told us in previous comments that you shouldn't trust crypto custodial services either. You're basically saying "this is a huge risk and in my perfect system you just have to live with it, and there's no recourse if it goes wrong and it's your fault" No thanks! > Slaves? Yeah, this is idealogical nonsense at this point, not any sort of reasoned debate. But regardless of whether you agree with the points I raise, the idea that bitcoin is 'perfect' doesn't really hold up. The huge energy use is not a desirable feature for a monetary system, one that is 'perfect' would not have that. Perhaps we cannot create such a 'perfect' system, perhaps (and this is not my view, obviously) bitcoin is the absolute best we can ever do(!), it's still not 'perfect', because it encompasses a set of compromises.

rglover 4y ago
Cool, take care.