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Parent comment doesn't seem to only be talking about prices. He's talking about Safari being the only browser on iOS. Other vendors are only allowed to reskin i

by mftb 4y ago

Parent comment doesn't seem to only be talking about prices. He's talking about Safari being the only browser on iOS. Other vendors are only allowed to reskin it.

scarface_74 4y ago
And it is still not “rent seeking” to only allow one browser. “Words Mean Things”.
- moonchrome 4y ago
  WebKit lock in is a way to prevent web apps from disrupting appstore cash cow. Appstore is rentseeking on popularity/market position of the iPhone/iOS - and clearly worded above - appstore distribution monopoly is anticompetitive.
  - scarface_74 4y ago
    This is another meme. It was revealed in the Epic trial that 80% of App Store revenue comes from games - that would not be in the browser anyway. If the lack of alternate browsers are the only thing stopping app developers from making better PWAs, then why are all the same developers making iOS apps, Android apps and web apps instead of just making iOS apps and web apps? And where are all of the successful profitable Android apps that are bypassing the Play Store?
    - calsy 4y ago
      Just because Android devices can allow for alternative stores, doesn't mean in anyway that it's easy to setup, nor is it simple to write software in the limited sandbox provided that needs to work independently of Google services. This is all by design. So, how successful do you think a store would be if its made difficult to install and difficult to create software for? Is it any surprise there are no successful profitable apps?
      - scarface_74 4y ago
        Then let’s limit the discussion to alternate web browsers. If the only reason that Apple is keeping alternate browsers out is because of losing App Store revenue, then we should have plenty of successful “apps” that are iOS/web only instead of iOS/Android/web.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        calsy 4y ago
        Are browsers the same as app stores? Are browsers designed to search for vetted web apps and provide an environment for them to run without the browser bulk? Are browsers designed for ease of purchase? Are alternative browsers supposed to be competition for app stores?
        scarface_74 4y ago
        From the person I originally replied to: > WebKit lock in is a way to prevent web apps from disrupting appstore cash cow
        calsy 4y ago
        I’m not aware of any proof this is the case. Regardless of platform, what business is going to invest the time and money required to make a competing platform for app delivery on mobile that rivals the current stores? Both Google and Apple can shutdown you down in an instant if they were to consider you a competitive threat. Why bother?
        scarface_74 4y ago
        So businesses won’t invest time and money to create a browser. But companies will invest literally billions of dollars collectively to develop other software? The Mozilla cooperation mostly survives because of Google funding it to be the default search engine. Even Microsoft decided it didn’t make sense to keep developing its own browser engine. How is a company going to make money creating browser? No company has successful made a profit from people paying for a browser - ever. Yes, I was around and into computers when the first browsers came out. I was actually writing extensions to a custom Mac Gopher server before the web became popular.
    - moonchrome 4y ago
      Umm apple was the slowest to adopt webgl 2.0 to the point where it was pointless targeting it because you didn't have reach. And WebKit blocks a lot of other standards. If iOS had open browser engines I guarantee you two things : - evolution of web standards would be different - web mobile games would be a thing The 30% cut would incentivise big distributors to invest in it (Epic/Steam). It was enough to get epic to risk getting baned from appstore
      - scarface_74 4y ago
        > web mobile games would be a thing If Apple is holding back “web mobile games”, why aren’t developers making games for iOS and the web instead of iOS and Android? As a mobile game developer wouldn’t it be logical to skip making a native game for Android and just make one for the web that covers Android and computers?
  - astrange 4y ago
    If other browsers were allowed, a lot more sites would become Chrome-only, and you might end up with only one browser again.
- mftb 4y ago
  It's definitely exclusionary. You could argue that it's exclusionary for legitimate reasons, but it's exclusionary.
  - scarface_74 4y ago
    Browsers are inherently insecure. Even Apple now has an optional “lock down mode” where it turns off performance enhancements in Safari browser that are historically vectors used to hack devices
    - mftb 4y ago
      That's a real stretch in a conversation about anti-competitive practices. These practices were a problem for consumers when MS employed them on Windows and they're a problem now on iOS. Specific to your point, browser vendors competing fairly would almost certainly find advantage in offering the most secure browser, thereby improving the platform for all, including Apple.
      - scarface_74 4y ago
        How is it a stretch? Even Apple is admitting that sone of its performance optimizations in the browser may lead to insecurities. Who is going to make a more secure browser? Google? Firefox? Every other popular browser is just a Chromium reskin outside of Safari and Firefox.
        mftb 4y ago
        I'm purposefully leaving aside the security question and will just respond with a new question of my own. Why would anyone even think of getting into the browser game when they're locked out of competing on arguably the single most important platform in the world?
        scarface_74 4y ago
        Wouldn’t that be Android with 70% market share in mobile followed by PCs?
AJ007 4y ago
Imagine if Microsoft had not only bundled Internet Explorer with Windows but also blocked all other competing browsers!
- scarface_74 4y ago
  Yes we would have the market dominated by one browser engine by a BigTech company where most of the other browsers are just reskins…oh wait. At least there is Firefox - which also gets most of its funding by the same BigTech company.

by mftb 4y ago

Parent comment doesn't seem to only be talking about prices. He's talking about Safari being the only browser on iOS. Other vendors are only allowed to reskin it.

scarface_74 4y ago

And it is still not “rent seeking” to only allow one browser. “Words Mean Things”.

moonchrome 4y ago
WebKit lock in is a way to prevent web apps from disrupting appstore cash cow. Appstore is rentseeking on popularity/market position of the iPhone/iOS - and clearly worded above - appstore distribution monopoly is anticompetitive.
- scarface_74 4y ago
  This is another meme. It was revealed in the Epic trial that 80% of App Store revenue comes from games - that would not be in the browser anyway. If the lack of alternate browsers are the only thing stopping app developers from making better PWAs, then why are all the same developers making iOS apps, Android apps and web apps instead of just making iOS apps and web apps? And where are all of the successful profitable Android apps that are bypassing the Play Store?
  - calsy 4y ago
    Just because Android devices can allow for alternative stores, doesn't mean in anyway that it's easy to setup, nor is it simple to write software in the limited sandbox provided that needs to work independently of Google services. This is all by design. So, how successful do you think a store would be if its made difficult to install and difficult to create software for? Is it any surprise there are no successful profitable apps?
    - scarface_74 4y ago
      Then let’s limit the discussion to alternate web browsers. If the only reason that Apple is keeping alternate browsers out is because of losing App Store revenue, then we should have plenty of successful “apps” that are iOS/web only instead of iOS/Android/web.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - calsy 4y ago
        Are browsers the same as app stores? Are browsers designed to search for vetted web apps and provide an environment for them to run without the browser bulk? Are browsers designed for ease of purchase? Are alternative browsers supposed to be competition for app stores?
        scarface_74 4y ago
        From the person I originally replied to: > WebKit lock in is a way to prevent web apps from disrupting appstore cash cow
        calsy 4y ago
        I’m not aware of any proof this is the case. Regardless of platform, what business is going to invest the time and money required to make a competing platform for app delivery on mobile that rivals the current stores? Both Google and Apple can shutdown you down in an instant if they were to consider you a competitive threat. Why bother?
        scarface_74 4y ago
        So businesses won’t invest time and money to create a browser. But companies will invest literally billions of dollars collectively to develop other software? The Mozilla cooperation mostly survives because of Google funding it to be the default search engine. Even Microsoft decided it didn’t make sense to keep developing its own browser engine. How is a company going to make money creating browser? No company has successful made a profit from people paying for a browser - ever. Yes, I was around and into computers when the first browsers came out. I was actually writing extensions to a custom Mac Gopher server before the web became popular.
  - moonchrome 4y ago
    Umm apple was the slowest to adopt webgl 2.0 to the point where it was pointless targeting it because you didn't have reach. And WebKit blocks a lot of other standards. If iOS had open browser engines I guarantee you two things : - evolution of web standards would be different - web mobile games would be a thing The 30% cut would incentivise big distributors to invest in it (Epic/Steam). It was enough to get epic to risk getting baned from appstore
    - scarface_74 4y ago
      > web mobile games would be a thing If Apple is holding back “web mobile games”, why aren’t developers making games for iOS and the web instead of iOS and Android? As a mobile game developer wouldn’t it be logical to skip making a native game for Android and just make one for the web that covers Android and computers?
- astrange 4y ago
  If other browsers were allowed, a lot more sites would become Chrome-only, and you might end up with only one browser again.
mftb 4y ago
It's definitely exclusionary. You could argue that it's exclusionary for legitimate reasons, but it's exclusionary.
- scarface_74 4y ago
  Browsers are inherently insecure. Even Apple now has an optional “lock down mode” where it turns off performance enhancements in Safari browser that are historically vectors used to hack devices
  - mftb 4y ago
    That's a real stretch in a conversation about anti-competitive practices. These practices were a problem for consumers when MS employed them on Windows and they're a problem now on iOS. Specific to your point, browser vendors competing fairly would almost certainly find advantage in offering the most secure browser, thereby improving the platform for all, including Apple.
    - scarface_74 4y ago
      How is it a stretch? Even Apple is admitting that sone of its performance optimizations in the browser may lead to insecurities. Who is going to make a more secure browser? Google? Firefox? Every other popular browser is just a Chromium reskin outside of Safari and Firefox.
      - mftb 4y ago
        I'm purposefully leaving aside the security question and will just respond with a new question of my own. Why would anyone even think of getting into the browser game when they're locked out of competing on arguably the single most important platform in the world?
        scarface_74 4y ago
        Wouldn’t that be Android with 70% market share in mobile followed by PCs?

AJ007 4y ago

Imagine if Microsoft had not only bundled Internet Explorer with Windows but also blocked all other competing browsers!

scarface_74 4y ago
Yes we would have the market dominated by one browser engine by a BigTech company where most of the other browsers are just reskins…oh wait. At least there is Firefox - which also gets most of its funding by the same BigTech company.