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I agree that there are pros and cons to remote work, and that it should be possible to have a frank discussion about where the balance lies. However, that is s

by kibwen 4y ago

I agree that there are pros and cons to remote work, and that it should be possible to have a frank discussion about where the balance lies. However, that is sadly irrelevant to this news item, as Musk isn't banning remote work because of any logical consideration of its merits. He's banning remote work because he's an authoritarian micromanager who believes that workers are to be treated like cattle.

GeneralAntilles 4y ago
Mind citing that assertion?
- kibwen 4y ago
  https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-praises-chinese-tesla-factory-workers-forced-1848923913 https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-praises-chinese-tesla-factory... During a keynote speech on May 10, Elon Musk commended Tesla factory workers in China for working under conditions that break labor laws in many parts of the world — including those in China, as The Guardian pointed out. The high praise from Elon went out to workers who are being pushed to meet production goals in the middle of pandemic lockdowns, which have been ongoing at the Gigafactory in Shanghai since April. The Tesla CEO went on to compare Chinese workers with their American counterparts, who Musk says lack work ethic he considers impressive and vital for EV companies to succeed. "There’s just a lot of super talented and hardworking people in China that strongly believe in manufacturing. And they won’t just be burning the midnight oil. They’ll be burning the 3am oil. So they won’t even leave the factory type of thing. Whereas in America, people are trying to avoid going to work at all." Going by what Musk says, it sure sounds like what they say is true: nobody wants to work anymore. That is, except for workers in China, where conditions enabling Tesla to meet production goals during lockdowns have less to do with burning oil past midnight, and more to do with China’s extreme work culture. Meaning Musk isn’t really praising hardworking people so much as a disregard for labor rules. During the lockdowns, workers at the Gigafactory reportedly worked 12-hour shifts, six days a week and slept on the floor. Again, that’s not only during recent lockdowns. This is actually common enough to be nicknamed “996.” That’s shorthand for work shifts going from 9am to 9pm, six days a week.
  - greedo 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - end_of_line 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - knodi123 4y ago
        or some sort of middle ground between these two manichean caricatures?
      - greedo 4y ago
        If you knew anything about Pournelle (his books are good, especially his collaborations with Niven), you'd realize he'd be the last to espouse communism. This is someone who arguably came up with the SDI during the Reagan administration. No, he's advocating for effective, efficient (and limited) government regulation.
        end_of_line 4y ago
        I come from the soviet block and I like to see when westerners keep flagging my post for laughing out communist advocates ( they are growing as you see ). My country ( Poland ) was an example for this unregulated capitalism transformation in 90s and I can say, I am glad somebody has tried it. Regarding regulations please see mifid 2 regulation and see how efficient and concise it is ( tousands of pages ). So to all westerners please come to eastern Europe and see these "efficient regulations" - they never are
    - JKCalhoun 4y ago
      Wow, a great quote. It left out child labor as well but I guess you have to keep it concise.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    I don't see how you can so confidently connect labor issues in a Gigafactory to his beliefs surrounding the efficacy of remote work. You still have not addressed this part of your claim: > He's banning remote work because he's an authoritarian micromanager You don't know why he's banning remote work, and you're guessing that its the most inflammatory reason you can come up with. You do not know.
- sixstringtheory 4y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33552970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33552970 from page 21 of https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23112929-elon-musk-text-exhibits-twitter-v-musk https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23112929-elon-musk-t...
SamReidHughes 4y ago
- grumple 4y ago
  That is explicitly untrue. We have labor laws in this country and many others. Beyond that, all behavior is not reasonable just because it's done with ones own money.
- lrvick 4y ago
  Everyone has the right to quit too. Anyone still at Twitter who is not sharpening their resumes and applying for new jobs at this point is a fool.
- Someone1234 4y ago
  That doesn't make him immune from criticism or being described as authoritarian. A negative view on an employer may not have an immediate impact but medium to long term it can make hiring and retaining difficult, which can drive up costs.
- bigfudge 4y ago
  Er no. There are both social and legal norms around employment. I’m not saying he’s breaking any laws here, but companies are a certain scale aren’t just the playthings of the boss they exist at the convenience and for the benefit for society at large (ie they are granted the privilege of being a company). That means there are constraints on corporate behaviour.
- diputsmonro 4y ago
  No, that's why we have labor laws. Being a billionaire doesn't make you a king. Every company is spending "their own money" to pay employees. It doesn't matter if there are a thousand shareholders or just one. There is still a corporate structure and formal employee relationships. They are employees, not serfs, and they deserve the respect that entails.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    > Being a billionaire doesn't make you a king. https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-employees-reveal-most-shocking-parts-of-working-there-2019-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-employees-reveal-most-... A former production employee who worked at the company over 10 years ago said he was surprised by his coworkers' attitude toward Musk. "When he walked by, people would bow down to him," the former employee said. "That was kind of surprising to me."
DiggyJohnson 4y ago
- kweingar 4y ago
  HN is full of strong comments like this. A lot worse has been said about many tech people on here (Larry Ellison comes to mind). Part of the cost of being a public figure and a multibillionaire is that people will talk about you without the same collegial tone that they'd use with their peers.
  - xvector 4y ago
    The strong comments are deserved for total assholes.
- sixstringtheory 4y ago
  He literally discussed this over text messages that were publicized as part of the trial discovery. Someone else has helpfully transcribed it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33552970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33552970 The official document is here, see page 21 for the transcribed conversation, see plenty of other pages for his callous thought process: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23112929-elon-musk-text-exhibits-twitter-v-musk https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23112929-elon-musk-t... Also, I think a review of this site’s guidelines is called for: > Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag, please don't also comment that you did. > Please don't comment about the voting on comments.
knodi123 4y ago
citing some evidence for all the people who are calling you out and accusing you of making up these claims against him: > He calls himself a "nano-manager". source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-car-pioneer-elon-musk-charges-head-on-at-detroit-1421033527 https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-car-pioneer-elon-musk-... > In conversations with 35 current and former Tesla employees, CEO Elon Musk is described as a polarizing figure who inspires but micromanages to an extreme. source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/19/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-extreme-micro-manager.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/19/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-extreme-... > Elon Musk says remote workers are just pretending to work. source: https://fortune.com/2022/07/20/elon-musk-remote-work-from-home-pretend-to-work/ https://fortune.com/2022/07/20/elon-musk-remote-work-from-ho...
- sekai 4y ago
  > Elon Musk says remote workers are just pretending to work. Hehe, I wonder how does he think how 100% remote companies continue to work and excel.

by kibwen 4y ago

GeneralAntilles 4y ago

Mind citing that assertion?

kibwen 4y ago
https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-praises-chinese-tesla-factory-workers-forced-1848923913 https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-praises-chinese-tesla-factory... During a keynote speech on May 10, Elon Musk commended Tesla factory workers in China for working under conditions that break labor laws in many parts of the world — including those in China, as The Guardian pointed out. The high praise from Elon went out to workers who are being pushed to meet production goals in the middle of pandemic lockdowns, which have been ongoing at the Gigafactory in Shanghai since April. The Tesla CEO went on to compare Chinese workers with their American counterparts, who Musk says lack work ethic he considers impressive and vital for EV companies to succeed. "There’s just a lot of super talented and hardworking people in China that strongly believe in manufacturing. And they won’t just be burning the midnight oil. They’ll be burning the 3am oil. So they won’t even leave the factory type of thing. Whereas in America, people are trying to avoid going to work at all." Going by what Musk says, it sure sounds like what they say is true: nobody wants to work anymore. That is, except for workers in China, where conditions enabling Tesla to meet production goals during lockdowns have less to do with burning oil past midnight, and more to do with China’s extreme work culture. Meaning Musk isn’t really praising hardworking people so much as a disregard for labor rules. During the lockdowns, workers at the Gigafactory reportedly worked 12-hour shifts, six days a week and slept on the floor. Again, that’s not only during recent lockdowns. This is actually common enough to be nicknamed “996.” That’s shorthand for work shifts going from 9am to 9pm, six days a week.
- greedo 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - end_of_line 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - knodi123 4y ago
      or some sort of middle ground between these two manichean caricatures?
    - greedo 4y ago
      If you knew anything about Pournelle (his books are good, especially his collaborations with Niven), you'd realize he'd be the last to espouse communism. This is someone who arguably came up with the SDI during the Reagan administration. No, he's advocating for effective, efficient (and limited) government regulation.
      - end_of_line 4y ago
        I come from the soviet block and I like to see when westerners keep flagging my post for laughing out communist advocates ( they are growing as you see ). My country ( Poland ) was an example for this unregulated capitalism transformation in 90s and I can say, I am glad somebody has tried it. Regarding regulations please see mifid 2 regulation and see how efficient and concise it is ( tousands of pages ). So to all westerners please come to eastern Europe and see these "efficient regulations" - they never are
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Wow, a great quote. It left out child labor as well but I guess you have to keep it concise.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  I don't see how you can so confidently connect labor issues in a Gigafactory to his beliefs surrounding the efficacy of remote work. You still have not addressed this part of your claim: > He's banning remote work because he's an authoritarian micromanager You don't know why he's banning remote work, and you're guessing that its the most inflammatory reason you can come up with. You do not know.
sixstringtheory 4y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33552970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33552970 from page 21 of https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23112929-elon-musk-text-exhibits-twitter-v-musk https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23112929-elon-musk-t...

SamReidHughes 4y ago

grumple 4y ago
That is explicitly untrue. We have labor laws in this country and many others. Beyond that, all behavior is not reasonable just because it's done with ones own money.
lrvick 4y ago
Everyone has the right to quit too. Anyone still at Twitter who is not sharpening their resumes and applying for new jobs at this point is a fool.
Someone1234 4y ago
That doesn't make him immune from criticism or being described as authoritarian. A negative view on an employer may not have an immediate impact but medium to long term it can make hiring and retaining difficult, which can drive up costs.
bigfudge 4y ago
Er no. There are both social and legal norms around employment. I’m not saying he’s breaking any laws here, but companies are a certain scale aren’t just the playthings of the boss they exist at the convenience and for the benefit for society at large (ie they are granted the privilege of being a company). That means there are constraints on corporate behaviour.
diputsmonro 4y ago
No, that's why we have labor laws. Being a billionaire doesn't make you a king. Every company is spending "their own money" to pay employees. It doesn't matter if there are a thousand shareholders or just one. There is still a corporate structure and formal employee relationships. They are employees, not serfs, and they deserve the respect that entails.
- kibwen 4y ago
  > Being a billionaire doesn't make you a king. https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-employees-reveal-most-shocking-parts-of-working-there-2019-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-employees-reveal-most-... A former production employee who worked at the company over 10 years ago said he was surprised by his coworkers' attitude toward Musk. "When he walked by, people would bow down to him," the former employee said. "That was kind of surprising to me."

DiggyJohnson 4y ago

kweingar 4y ago
HN is full of strong comments like this. A lot worse has been said about many tech people on here (Larry Ellison comes to mind). Part of the cost of being a public figure and a multibillionaire is that people will talk about you without the same collegial tone that they'd use with their peers.
- xvector 4y ago
  The strong comments are deserved for total assholes.
sixstringtheory 4y ago
He literally discussed this over text messages that were publicized as part of the trial discovery. Someone else has helpfully transcribed it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33552970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33552970 The official document is here, see page 21 for the transcribed conversation, see plenty of other pages for his callous thought process: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23112929-elon-musk-text-exhibits-twitter-v-musk https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23112929-elon-musk-t... Also, I think a review of this site’s guidelines is called for: > Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag, please don't also comment that you did. > Please don't comment about the voting on comments.

knodi123 4y ago

citing some evidence for all the people who are calling you out and accusing you of making up these claims against him: > He calls himself a "nano-manager". source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-car-pioneer-elon-musk-charges-head-on-at-detroit-1421033527 https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-car-pioneer-elon-musk-... > In conversations with 35 current and former Tesla employees, CEO Elon Musk is described as a polarizing figure who inspires but micromanages to an extreme. source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/19/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-extreme-micro-manager.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/19/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-extreme-... > Elon Musk says remote workers are just pretending to work. source: https://fortune.com/2022/07/20/elon-musk-remote-work-from-home-pretend-to-work/ https://fortune.com/2022/07/20/elon-musk-remote-work-from-ho...

sekai 4y ago
> Elon Musk says remote workers are just pretending to work. Hehe, I wonder how does he think how 100% remote companies continue to work and excel.