4 ms·

AFAICT this isn't the case Is this a "as far as I can tell based on my knowledge of immunology" or "as far as I can tell based off of personal experience and g

by NickM 4y ago

AFAICT this isn't the case Is this a "as far as I can tell based on my knowledge of immunology" or "as far as I can tell based off of personal experience and gut feeling"? I mean, what you're saying sounds plausible, but on the other hand it also sounds plausible that maybe periodic exposure to random viruses and stuff does strengthen your immune system, so I'm curious if your take here is actually based in science or is just an off-the-cuff idea.

Juliate 4y ago
The strength of your immune system is the energy your body has to provide. What's influenced/improved through (accidental or controlled/vaccines) exposure is it memory. Although exposure can also have other consequences on the whole body, if the system is overwhelmed/can't cope.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  You are not answering the important question in the parent: is this "as far as I can tell based off of personal experience and gut feeling"?
  - junofan 4y ago
    The past two years have demonstrated the state of the art w.r.t. infectious disease may not be as great as advertised. So likely gut feeling.
  - Juliate 4y ago
    It's more like a current understanding of various takes of professionals on the "immunity debt" concept, especially in children: * https://twitter.com/FurnessColin/status/1589103107048624129 https://twitter.com/FurnessColin/status/1589103107048624129 (which has an additional interesting take about measles) * https://twitter.com/lisa_iannattone/status/1576231512717991937 https://twitter.com/lisa_iannattone/status/15762315127179919... * https://twitter.com/unbiasedscipod/status/1588915934991126529 https://twitter.com/unbiasedscipod/status/158891593499112652... * https://counterdisinformationproject.substack.com/p/immunity-debt-established-2021 https://counterdisinformationproject.substack.com/p/immunity... which is not necessarily intuitive as well, but still, at this point, makes way more sense than the "immune system is a muscle" discourse.
timmytokyo 4y ago
As far as I can tell based off of personal experience, HN is full of armchair experts on topics outside their realm of expertise. Heck, I even play one myself now and then.
- spookthesunset 4y ago
  Appeals to authority only get you so far.
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  Yup. And the more strongly opinions are given, the more uptight they get when you ask for a cite or two (with a few honourable exceptions).
lsy 4y ago
This is what immunologists are saying pretty much everywhere you look. I thought "AFAICT" was clear enough that 1) I have tried to find this out and 2) from what I can tell the preponderance of opinion from people who seem qualified to say so is that your immune system doesn't "weaken" because you are avoiding infection. Even TFA quotes an immunologist calling the idea of individual-level immune system weakening "nonsense". I could also be wrong or looking at the wrong sources. I don't want to stop anyone from looking this up themselves, finding out what experts are saying, and making a judgment of their own. We don't have to stick with folk science or what "sounds plausible". My comment was mainly to point up the analogy for seeing more infections today primarily because there were fewer infections before, not primarily because everyone's immune system is weakened. There are of course other concerns with disease burden and herd immunity overshoot. I do fear people are stretching the Windows Update analogy too thin, as your immune system isn't a computer and the dynamics are more complex (e.g. it doesn't matter if you avoid Covid Alpha and don't ever become perfectly immune to it, because there is hardly any of it circulating anymore, and your Omicron infection has some cross-immunity).

by NickM 4y ago

Juliate 4y ago

The strength of your immune system is the energy your body has to provide. What's influenced/improved through (accidental or controlled/vaccines) exposure is it memory. Although exposure can also have other consequences on the whole body, if the system is overwhelmed/can't cope.

lostmsu 4y ago
You are not answering the important question in the parent: is this "as far as I can tell based off of personal experience and gut feeling"?
- junofan 4y ago
  The past two years have demonstrated the state of the art w.r.t. infectious disease may not be as great as advertised. So likely gut feeling.
- Juliate 4y ago
  It's more like a current understanding of various takes of professionals on the "immunity debt" concept, especially in children: * https://twitter.com/FurnessColin/status/1589103107048624129 https://twitter.com/FurnessColin/status/1589103107048624129 (which has an additional interesting take about measles) * https://twitter.com/lisa_iannattone/status/1576231512717991937 https://twitter.com/lisa_iannattone/status/15762315127179919... * https://twitter.com/unbiasedscipod/status/1588915934991126529 https://twitter.com/unbiasedscipod/status/158891593499112652... * https://counterdisinformationproject.substack.com/p/immunity-debt-established-2021 https://counterdisinformationproject.substack.com/p/immunity... which is not necessarily intuitive as well, but still, at this point, makes way more sense than the "immune system is a muscle" discourse.

timmytokyo 4y ago

As far as I can tell based off of personal experience, HN is full of armchair experts on topics outside their realm of expertise. Heck, I even play one myself now and then.

spookthesunset 4y ago
Appeals to authority only get you so far.
zasdffaa 4y ago
Yup. And the more strongly opinions are given, the more uptight they get when you ask for a cite or two (with a few honourable exceptions).

lsy 4y ago

This is what immunologists are saying pretty much everywhere you look. I thought "AFAICT" was clear enough that 1) I have tried to find this out and 2) from what I can tell the preponderance of opinion from people who seem qualified to say so is that your immune system doesn't "weaken" because you are avoiding infection. Even TFA quotes an immunologist calling the idea of individual-level immune system weakening "nonsense". I could also be wrong or looking at the wrong sources. I don't want to stop anyone from looking this up themselves, finding out what experts are saying, and making a judgment of their own. We don't have to stick with folk science or what "sounds plausible". My comment was mainly to point up the analogy for seeing more infections today primarily because there were fewer infections before, not primarily because everyone's immune system is weakened. There are of course other concerns with disease burden and herd immunity overshoot. I do fear people are stretching the Windows Update analogy too thin, as your immune system isn't a computer and the dynamics are more complex (e.g. it doesn't matter if you avoid Covid Alpha and don't ever become perfectly immune to it, because there is hardly any of it circulating anymore, and your Omicron infection has some cross-immunity).