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We didn't take a middle ground. Kids (the poorest and most disadvantaged) suffered a massive, irrecoverable learning loss under the mandates of public health ex

We didn't take a middle ground. Kids (the poorest and most disadvantaged) suffered a massive, irrecoverable learning loss under the mandates of public health experts.

ceejayoz 4y ago
We absolutely took a middle ground. Schools could've stayed closed much longer, masks could've been required much longer, vaccines could've been made mandatory. We prioritized cleaning over ventilation, to our severe detriment. Deeming it "irrecoverable" requires a time machine; one of the most frustrating parts about dealing with child development is the impacts take decades to sort out, in sometimes surprising fashion.
- taolegal 4y ago
  > We absolutely took a middle ground. Europe apparently operated a lot less draconian wrt schools, never really closed down & things worked out pretty well. The science was pretty clear even from early on but democrats in US said georgia reopening schools was "an exercise in human sacrifice." You don't need a middle ground for the least vulnerable age-range for covid. > Deeming it "irrecoverable" requires a time machine what? it's irrecoverable because you never get back lost time, the past is settled and kids lost out on crucial brain development windows
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    > Europe apparently operated a lot less draconian wrt schools, never really closed down & things worked out pretty well. I certainly would've preferred this; here we kept the bars open, but closed the schools. Both are middle grounds, I preferred Europe's prioritization. At the time these decisions were being made, some folks talked about R0 being like a budget - you want it under one, and each mitigation gets you part of the way there. I was disappointed to see the US prioritize economy over kids; much of the world made the opposite choice, and provided more income supports to keep kids in school. > You don't need a middle ground for the least vulnerable age-range for covid. This would be a great point if kids lived alone, with no vulnerable folks at home. > it's irrecoverable because you never get back lost time People recover from lost time frequently. If your teacher is sick and you have a substitute teacher for a couple days, that time gets made up. There's summer school, enrichment programs, etc. Very little of what kids learn in school has to be learned in one specific set of months; there's a pretty large range in exact ages within a single grade, even. It'll be years, maybe decades before we know how plastic child development is in this regard. Right now, there are massive unknowns in evaluating all of this.
    - coryrc 4y ago
      > People recover from lost time frequently. Nope. They fall behind and don't catch up. https://www.edweek.org/education/students-who-struggle-early-rarely-catch-up-study-says/2012/12 https://www.edweek.org/education/students-who-struggle-early...
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        There's likely to be a significant difference between how teachers treat "one student is behind their peers" and "this entire class didn't get much of third grade".
        coryrc 4y ago
        Standardized testing isn't changing, common core hasn't shifted things back two years. We are just leaving them behind.
pvaldes 4y ago
Or maybe they were free to focus on their favorite hobbies and started a successful career. Nobody knows. Irrecoverable seems a word too extreme in any case
- spookthesunset 4y ago
  > Or maybe they were free to focus on their favorite hobbies and started a successful career. Kinda hard to do if you are trapped at home with an abusive family. For many kids school is not just education but a sanctuary from a broken home. It takes a lot of privilege to support closing schools for any duration of time—especially two years.
- taolegal 4y ago
  > Or maybe they were free to focus on their favorite hobbies and started a successful career yea the young kids who are forming hobbies, instead of say learning to read or talk
  - pvaldes 4y ago
    Lets not overdramatize and we will have a stronger speech. To start, kids don't learn how to talk in the school. Not normally and if they are so young as to not being able to talk still, school is basically a convenience parking for toddlers. We shouldn't adjust the laws to the saddest history that we can find. Treating everybody in a population as if all of them were outliers does not give the desired results. Children are able to learn in lots of places apart of the school. Yes, is a fact. They can learn a lot for example from their grandpas and grandma. Of course, as long as their grandparents are alive because they were smarter than the fake news and the 'magufo' crew.
- xorcist 4y ago
  We have plenty of numbers now that show the effects of lockdown on kids. The effects are especially clear for the disadvantaged who struggled before.
  - spookthesunset 4y ago

We didn't take a middle ground. Kids (the poorest and most disadvantaged) suffered a massive, irrecoverable learning loss under the mandates of public health experts.

ceejayoz 4y ago

We absolutely took a middle ground. Schools could've stayed closed much longer, masks could've been required much longer, vaccines could've been made mandatory. We prioritized cleaning over ventilation, to our severe detriment. Deeming it "irrecoverable" requires a time machine; one of the most frustrating parts about dealing with child development is the impacts take decades to sort out, in sometimes surprising fashion.

taolegal 4y ago
> We absolutely took a middle ground. Europe apparently operated a lot less draconian wrt schools, never really closed down & things worked out pretty well. The science was pretty clear even from early on but democrats in US said georgia reopening schools was "an exercise in human sacrifice." You don't need a middle ground for the least vulnerable age-range for covid. > Deeming it "irrecoverable" requires a time machine what? it's irrecoverable because you never get back lost time, the past is settled and kids lost out on crucial brain development windows
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > Europe apparently operated a lot less draconian wrt schools, never really closed down & things worked out pretty well. I certainly would've preferred this; here we kept the bars open, but closed the schools. Both are middle grounds, I preferred Europe's prioritization. At the time these decisions were being made, some folks talked about R0 being like a budget - you want it under one, and each mitigation gets you part of the way there. I was disappointed to see the US prioritize economy over kids; much of the world made the opposite choice, and provided more income supports to keep kids in school. > You don't need a middle ground for the least vulnerable age-range for covid. This would be a great point if kids lived alone, with no vulnerable folks at home. > it's irrecoverable because you never get back lost time People recover from lost time frequently. If your teacher is sick and you have a substitute teacher for a couple days, that time gets made up. There's summer school, enrichment programs, etc. Very little of what kids learn in school has to be learned in one specific set of months; there's a pretty large range in exact ages within a single grade, even. It'll be years, maybe decades before we know how plastic child development is in this regard. Right now, there are massive unknowns in evaluating all of this.
  - coryrc 4y ago
    > People recover from lost time frequently. Nope. They fall behind and don't catch up. https://www.edweek.org/education/students-who-struggle-early-rarely-catch-up-study-says/2012/12 https://www.edweek.org/education/students-who-struggle-early...
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      There's likely to be a significant difference between how teachers treat "one student is behind their peers" and "this entire class didn't get much of third grade".
      - coryrc 4y ago
        Standardized testing isn't changing, common core hasn't shifted things back two years. We are just leaving them behind.

pvaldes 4y ago

Or maybe they were free to focus on their favorite hobbies and started a successful career. Nobody knows. Irrecoverable seems a word too extreme in any case

spookthesunset 4y ago
> Or maybe they were free to focus on their favorite hobbies and started a successful career. Kinda hard to do if you are trapped at home with an abusive family. For many kids school is not just education but a sanctuary from a broken home. It takes a lot of privilege to support closing schools for any duration of time—especially two years.
taolegal 4y ago
> Or maybe they were free to focus on their favorite hobbies and started a successful career yea the young kids who are forming hobbies, instead of say learning to read or talk
- pvaldes 4y ago
  Lets not overdramatize and we will have a stronger speech. To start, kids don't learn how to talk in the school. Not normally and if they are so young as to not being able to talk still, school is basically a convenience parking for toddlers. We shouldn't adjust the laws to the saddest history that we can find. Treating everybody in a population as if all of them were outliers does not give the desired results. Children are able to learn in lots of places apart of the school. Yes, is a fact. They can learn a lot for example from their grandpas and grandma. Of course, as long as their grandparents are alive because they were smarter than the fake news and the 'magufo' crew.
xorcist 4y ago
We have plenty of numbers now that show the effects of lockdown on kids. The effects are especially clear for the disadvantaged who struggled before.
- spookthesunset 4y ago