6 ms·

I normally find that, unless an essay is about mathematics, if it is based on a binary argument then it's just false because it's too simplistic to be based in

by zedshaw 15y ago

I normally find that, unless an essay is about mathematics, if it is based on a binary argument then it's just false because it's too simplistic to be based in reality. In this case saying there's only "trolls" and "super awesome people!" is childish. There's a much more interesting spectrum of human behavior online that doesn't fit into these convenient categories. To then say there's only two types of "trolls" is again to reduce the argument to just two boolean options. For example: I know for a fact that the various people who run HN use it to selectively market what they want, but maintain that it is some trust worthy news source for hackers. Since there's no way to distinguish between the astroturfed "top stories" advertising for YC companies and a real news story the entire forum becomes suspect. I consider this just as bad as trolling, except the leadership does it so people don't comment on it. I've also seen huge double standards on here, again because people in charge can do whatever they want. They'll yell about ad hominem attacks and then do them two comments down. They'll post one-liner attack comments and call that "enlightened discourse", then call someone else's similar comment a "troll". Shit, people on here have outright called me a cocksucker and posted whole presentations vilifying me personally and nobody bats a wee little eyelash at it. All of you are heavily manipulated on this forum and yet, here you are complaining about trolls? At least trolls can't hellban you to defend their little astroturf empire.

lmbe 15y ago
So Hackernews is the new slash-dot yawn. I'm all about lamernews. You can't change a community you can only leave it.
- DiabloD3 15y ago
  Although I'm pretty sure you made this comment to be troll bait, I'm upvoting it. >You can't change a community you can only leave it. This is very very true. I've quit many communities because they devolved into noise and spam. I've publicly said that I came to HN merely because I wanted a good list of links worth reading, and somehow I ended up with an account and almost 1000 karma. I suspect in the next 2-3 years I'll leave HN because it really will have jumped the shark by then. Although, I think the discussion of the slashdotification of HN is off-topic according to the rules.
  - einhverfr 15y ago
    If there is a discussion where troll bait might be appropriate it is this one. I actually read it as a sort of half-troll, half-satire on the original post, and thought it was actually pretty good. Though if I had written it I would have added stuff to obviously mark ti as satire like: Because Linux is dying, BSD is set for world domination, and Microsoft writes the world's most robust software in the world. After all they write database servers which are used to run nuclear reactors! (How many classic trolls can I satirize in one post? I don't know.)
- LearnYouALisp 15y ago
  Lamer-news! Now that would be a funny website.
  - m0th87 15y ago
    http://lamernews.com/ http://lamernews.com/
    - LearnYouALisp 15y ago
      Yeah, I figured.
vault_ 15y ago
This comment is a fantastic example of what is probably the most insidious form of trolling.
- m_for_monkey 15y ago
  In fact, that comment highlights a point missing from pg's essay - that a forum can easily become too closed, and if someone is on an even slightly different opinion than the residents then he is called a troll immediately. Just try to say that "Lisp is not perfect" on this forum! :)
m0th87 15y ago
Are you suggesting HN's ranking algorithm biases toward YC-related content? Because that is a serious accusation. I realize YC job posts can disable comments, and there is a separate tab for open jobs. That's no big deal because the behavior is externally visible and obvious. If HN actually re-ranks articles to support YC content though, that is a big deal. And it's scary how that might subtly affect the Valley, given how large and influential HN is now.
- to3m 15y ago
  Interesting viewpoint. I'd always assumed that YC-specific "stuff" would get automatic preference, or would at least be marginally sticky. Is that not the case? While this site does permit random people to submit random links, and then allow more random people to comment on the articles, I'd just assumed it was fundamentally a source of marketing for Mr Graham and his activities. After all, it IS part of ycombinator.com...
  - earbitscom 15y ago
    I think the preference stems primarily from two factors: 1. There are hundreds of YC companies now, each with multiple founders, almost all of whom are HN readers. Each person here votes on topics, articles and companies they find interesting. I follow a lot of YC-related news because it's fun and helpful to be informed about YC and the alumni. Therefore, I'm more familiar with YC companies and founders, so I will tend to vote on their news slightly more often. With hundreds of founders from YC, it only takes a small bias like this to create a slight lean toward YC news getting better results here than other similar news. 2. This same bias isn't exclusive to YC alumni. Most people on HN familiar with YC like it, respect PG, and are interested in YC companies and the progress of the portfolio. So, in addition to a small bias on the part of the alumni, I have also seen that YC news gets more votes and comments from the rest of the community. While that might mean that YC news gets more exposure and other news less, more people seem to be interested in it than not, so it seems the forum still works as it should.
- zedshaw 15y ago
  Never said ranking algorithm. I said, there's a bunch of links (like job postings and YC company PR posts) that get privileged front page status with their own decay algorithms, yet they aren't flagged as "promoted". They're just mixed in as if it's actually relevant news a bunch of people upvoted to the front page. Or how about all that crap that was on scribd back when nobody knew what scribd was? If you think this isn't a manipulated news source then you're high on a metric ton of horseshit.
jamesaguilar 15y ago
It's easier to talk about modes than distributions. The way I read it, that's what PG is doing here.
pg 15y ago
For example: I know for a fact that the various people who run HN use it to selectively market what they want While you are vague here about what you mean by this, you are more precise later in this thread, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3354698 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3354698 and what you say there is false. Stories about YC companies don't get any extra points or have a different ranking algorithm. They are also treated the same by anti-abuse code, like the voting ring detector. If you'd thought more about it, you'd have realized things couldn't be otherwise. I know people will ask me whether there is any sort of bias in the frontpage rankings in favor of stories about YC cos, and I have to be able to say truthfully that there isn't.
- jcr 15y ago
  Paul, please don't get me wrong, but I would like to politely point out the exception; job posts from YC companies do get preferential treatment in rankings on the front page. It's a known fact, and since absolutely everything here is paid for by you and/or YC, no one has any right or room to complain about YC funded companies getting some additional exposure on their jobs posting. It's fair to consider the YC company job postings as a small advertisement supporting the site. Considering the crap that Patrick (patio11) and Google received about mixing advertisements with results in (intentionaly?) confusing ways, it might be better to put the YC company job ads in a different location (top of the page, un-numbered and time limited to 24 hours or so) just to make the intent and separation more clear. --It's just a thought. Your handling of the AirBnB fiasco was stellar. You let the negative story posts stay on the HN, and you allowed them to be up-voted to infinity and beyond. The thing most people don't realize is "Why the stories eventually started to decline in rankings, and why they declined so quickly?" --The reason is people like me; those who got tired of seeing the font page loaded with derogatory speculation and opinion about AirBnB, and decided to 'flag' all of the submissions. Though I have no proof, I'm certain I'm not the only one to be annoyed to the point of flagging all the nonsense. The most recent HN Troll happened this morning, namely the HTTP LoLCats crap. It made it to the #2 spot on the front page (possibly #1 for a short period). I was impressed that in the 17 comments, there were no "This doesn't belong on HN" posts, so a lot of people were smart enough to just silently hit the 'flag' link. I just finished checking, and the HTTP LoLCats submission was nowhere to be seen in the first 360 results. Had the HTTP LolCats submission still been on the front page after I got a few hours of sleep, I may have logged out of HN and never returned. It's fantastic to know you have voting-ring detection functioning to some degree. It's a great way to prevent spam in all of it's various forms. Without knowing the code you're really running (secret sauce and all that), I can see one potential problem; Since the HN moderators are from the ranks of the YC funded company founders, their participation on HN is most likely weighted differently. In other words, the friends amongst the YC founders not only constitute a voting-ring of sorts, but their actions/votes on HN may have more weight. With human beings wanting their friends to succeed, there is really no way around this issue, technical or otherwise. Though I have no special weight or privileges here on HN, I openly admit to voting up and rooting for some of the YC funded companies that are doing great things. A more direct way to say it is, I'm also part of the "problem" of YC funded companies getting preferential treatment. Maybe I'm a terrible person for wanting them to succeed, but then again, maybe I'm only human, like rooting for good people doing great things, and maybe there are plenty of other normal humans like me around here. A lot of people, including Zed, only notice the very real inconsistencies, but they don't understand the fundamental and technical causes of the inconsistencies. You did address Zed's point, but you are essentially defending a non-issue. EDIT: Seeing this post get down-voted is disheartening. It tells me that there is something definitely wrong, and the cause could be me, or HN, or both, but I don't know for certain.
Confusion 15y ago
They'll yell about ad hominem attacks and then do them two comments down. If that's an example of 'doing whatever they want', then we can all do whatever we want. Nobody gets punished for the behavior you describe here, except by downvotes on the second comment. It's not about a double standard: it's a lack of judgement that many people suffer from. Being able to tell ad hominems in comments by others does not imply being able to tell ad hominems in your own comments. and nobody bats a wee little eyelash at it. You're kindly forgetting the many people that disagree with such namecalling and vilification and are calling others out for that. You can't find a thread where there weren't also people that agreed with you.

by zedshaw 15y ago

lmbe 15y ago

So Hackernews is the new slash-dot yawn. I'm all about lamernews. You can't change a community you can only leave it.

DiabloD3 15y ago
Although I'm pretty sure you made this comment to be troll bait, I'm upvoting it. >You can't change a community you can only leave it. This is very very true. I've quit many communities because they devolved into noise and spam. I've publicly said that I came to HN merely because I wanted a good list of links worth reading, and somehow I ended up with an account and almost 1000 karma. I suspect in the next 2-3 years I'll leave HN because it really will have jumped the shark by then. Although, I think the discussion of the slashdotification of HN is off-topic according to the rules.
- einhverfr 15y ago
  If there is a discussion where troll bait might be appropriate it is this one. I actually read it as a sort of half-troll, half-satire on the original post, and thought it was actually pretty good. Though if I had written it I would have added stuff to obviously mark ti as satire like: Because Linux is dying, BSD is set for world domination, and Microsoft writes the world's most robust software in the world. After all they write database servers which are used to run nuclear reactors! (How many classic trolls can I satirize in one post? I don't know.)
LearnYouALisp 15y ago
Lamer-news! Now that would be a funny website.
- m0th87 15y ago
  http://lamernews.com/ http://lamernews.com/
  - LearnYouALisp 15y ago
    Yeah, I figured.

vault_ 15y ago

This comment is a fantastic example of what is probably the most insidious form of trolling.

m_for_monkey 15y ago
In fact, that comment highlights a point missing from pg's essay - that a forum can easily become too closed, and if someone is on an even slightly different opinion than the residents then he is called a troll immediately. Just try to say that "Lisp is not perfect" on this forum! :)

m0th87 15y ago

Are you suggesting HN's ranking algorithm biases toward YC-related content? Because that is a serious accusation. I realize YC job posts can disable comments, and there is a separate tab for open jobs. That's no big deal because the behavior is externally visible and obvious. If HN actually re-ranks articles to support YC content though, that is a big deal. And it's scary how that might subtly affect the Valley, given how large and influential HN is now.

to3m 15y ago
Interesting viewpoint. I'd always assumed that YC-specific "stuff" would get automatic preference, or would at least be marginally sticky. Is that not the case? While this site does permit random people to submit random links, and then allow more random people to comment on the articles, I'd just assumed it was fundamentally a source of marketing for Mr Graham and his activities. After all, it IS part of ycombinator.com...
- earbitscom 15y ago
  I think the preference stems primarily from two factors: 1. There are hundreds of YC companies now, each with multiple founders, almost all of whom are HN readers. Each person here votes on topics, articles and companies they find interesting. I follow a lot of YC-related news because it's fun and helpful to be informed about YC and the alumni. Therefore, I'm more familiar with YC companies and founders, so I will tend to vote on their news slightly more often. With hundreds of founders from YC, it only takes a small bias like this to create a slight lean toward YC news getting better results here than other similar news. 2. This same bias isn't exclusive to YC alumni. Most people on HN familiar with YC like it, respect PG, and are interested in YC companies and the progress of the portfolio. So, in addition to a small bias on the part of the alumni, I have also seen that YC news gets more votes and comments from the rest of the community. While that might mean that YC news gets more exposure and other news less, more people seem to be interested in it than not, so it seems the forum still works as it should.
zedshaw 15y ago
Never said ranking algorithm. I said, there's a bunch of links (like job postings and YC company PR posts) that get privileged front page status with their own decay algorithms, yet they aren't flagged as "promoted". They're just mixed in as if it's actually relevant news a bunch of people upvoted to the front page. Or how about all that crap that was on scribd back when nobody knew what scribd was? If you think this isn't a manipulated news source then you're high on a metric ton of horseshit.

jamesaguilar 15y ago

It's easier to talk about modes than distributions. The way I read it, that's what PG is doing here.

pg 15y ago

For example: I know for a fact that the various people who run HN use it to selectively market what they want While you are vague here about what you mean by this, you are more precise later in this thread, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3354698 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3354698 and what you say there is false. Stories about YC companies don't get any extra points or have a different ranking algorithm. They are also treated the same by anti-abuse code, like the voting ring detector. If you'd thought more about it, you'd have realized things couldn't be otherwise. I know people will ask me whether there is any sort of bias in the frontpage rankings in favor of stories about YC cos, and I have to be able to say truthfully that there isn't.

jcr 15y ago
Paul, please don't get me wrong, but I would like to politely point out the exception; job posts from YC companies do get preferential treatment in rankings on the front page. It's a known fact, and since absolutely everything here is paid for by you and/or YC, no one has any right or room to complain about YC funded companies getting some additional exposure on their jobs posting. It's fair to consider the YC company job postings as a small advertisement supporting the site. Considering the crap that Patrick (patio11) and Google received about mixing advertisements with results in (intentionaly?) confusing ways, it might be better to put the YC company job ads in a different location (top of the page, un-numbered and time limited to 24 hours or so) just to make the intent and separation more clear. --It's just a thought. Your handling of the AirBnB fiasco was stellar. You let the negative story posts stay on the HN, and you allowed them to be up-voted to infinity and beyond. The thing most people don't realize is "Why the stories eventually started to decline in rankings, and why they declined so quickly?" --The reason is people like me; those who got tired of seeing the font page loaded with derogatory speculation and opinion about AirBnB, and decided to 'flag' all of the submissions. Though I have no proof, I'm certain I'm not the only one to be annoyed to the point of flagging all the nonsense. The most recent HN Troll happened this morning, namely the HTTP LoLCats crap. It made it to the #2 spot on the front page (possibly #1 for a short period). I was impressed that in the 17 comments, there were no "This doesn't belong on HN" posts, so a lot of people were smart enough to just silently hit the 'flag' link. I just finished checking, and the HTTP LoLCats submission was nowhere to be seen in the first 360 results. Had the HTTP LolCats submission still been on the front page after I got a few hours of sleep, I may have logged out of HN and never returned. It's fantastic to know you have voting-ring detection functioning to some degree. It's a great way to prevent spam in all of it's various forms. Without knowing the code you're really running (secret sauce and all that), I can see one potential problem; Since the HN moderators are from the ranks of the YC funded company founders, their participation on HN is most likely weighted differently. In other words, the friends amongst the YC founders not only constitute a voting-ring of sorts, but their actions/votes on HN may have more weight. With human beings wanting their friends to succeed, there is really no way around this issue, technical or otherwise. Though I have no special weight or privileges here on HN, I openly admit to voting up and rooting for some of the YC funded companies that are doing great things. A more direct way to say it is, I'm also part of the "problem" of YC funded companies getting preferential treatment. Maybe I'm a terrible person for wanting them to succeed, but then again, maybe I'm only human, like rooting for good people doing great things, and maybe there are plenty of other normal humans like me around here. A lot of people, including Zed, only notice the very real inconsistencies, but they don't understand the fundamental and technical causes of the inconsistencies. You did address Zed's point, but you are essentially defending a non-issue. EDIT: Seeing this post get down-voted is disheartening. It tells me that there is something definitely wrong, and the cause could be me, or HN, or both, but I don't know for certain.

Confusion 15y ago

They'll yell about ad hominem attacks and then do them two comments down. If that's an example of 'doing whatever they want', then we can all do whatever we want. Nobody gets punished for the behavior you describe here, except by downvotes on the second comment. It's not about a double standard: it's a lack of judgement that many people suffer from. Being able to tell ad hominems in comments by others does not imply being able to tell ad hominems in your own comments. and nobody bats a wee little eyelash at it. You're kindly forgetting the many people that disagree with such namecalling and vilification and are calling others out for that. You can't find a thread where there weren't also people that agreed with you.