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You know, I'm not sure if you're down to hear this, but chances are if you upvoted this article, you're a man upvoting an article by a man, and there's a bunch

You know, I'm not sure if you're down to hear this, but chances are if you upvoted this article, you're a man upvoting an article by a man, and there's a bunch of men in the comments talking about how inoffensive they find the word "guys" when applied to groups. And, these men are probably downvoting comments that suggest that they may be the sensitive ones, who should just alter their language slightly, like they do routinely when new buzzwords and tools and techniques come up in their jobs. Is this what an echo chamber looks like?

35amxn35 4y ago
On the contrary, you need an echo chamber in order to push this idea. Most people are tired of being lectured on what's offensive/not inclusive and constantly walking on eggshells, and it's beginning to show. The Buzzfeed era is over.
- tomlockwood 4y ago
  > Most people are tired of being lectured on what's offensive/not inclusive Conservatives have been saying this forever, and its not coming true. They said it about gay slurs and racism and have been saying it forever about sexism. They're born to lose and can't stop complaining about how Being Appropriate at Work is so hard These Days.
  - 35amxn35 4y ago
    No, it's not only definitely coming true, it's been happening for a while now and it's becoming mainstream. Here's a very neutral video on the topic: https://youtu.be/fKBLn--BBdg https://youtu.be/fKBLn--BBdg. I think the peak was around the late 2010s.
    - tomlockwood 4y ago
      Nah, conservatives have thought this forever and they probably listened to voices that complained about women being too into "hookup culture" and "cancelling" also. This channel's bias is clear. No new news here. This echo chamber y'all have made for yourselves is airtight.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Most people are tired of being lectured on what's offensive/not inclusive and constantly walking on eggshells, and it's beginning to show The first time I heard this from the political right was about “political correctness” when I was in grade school nearly 40 years ago. I don't see any evidence that it is any more true now than it was then.
- bitwize 4y ago
  Autres temps, autres moeurs. It's 2022, and high time to retire gendered language in mixed-gender contexts. No "guys", no "guys and gals", no "ladies and gentlemen". Gender is a spectrum, not a binary, and there are plenty of neutral expressions you can use like "beautiful people" or "fellow space travelers". The safety of the marginalized trumps the comfort of the privileged. Those tired of being lectured can deal with the change; those marginalized by erasure of their identity by the very language they speak must fight harder to be included in the face of such erasure,
  - googlryas 4y ago
    Why don't we just redefine guys to be gender neutral, instead of dropping it entirely? It's not like it has a problematic history.
    - 35amxn35 4y ago
      The GP was being sardonic, but if you spend a little while in twitter and discord and you'll find some people out there really are a few cards shy of a full deck. The problem is that they are also the loudest. Truth be told, I think they always existed but the internet has enabled them to display and strengthen their lunacy.
  - 35amxn35 4y ago
    Lol, this is 10/10 satire. The scary part is that many lunatics think this way unironically. Books will be written about this time in history.
    - tomlockwood 4y ago
      > Books will be written about this time in history. Could you just read this again and think about it a little? Amazing zinger there.
  - NackerHughes 4y ago
    "Beautiful people" is a horribly discriminative term. It excludes everyone who isn't in line with unrealistic modern Western beauty standards, and makes anyone who's ever been called "ugly" or had a comment made about their appearance feel shut out of the conversation. "Fellow space travelers" is similarly exclusionary. Did you consider at all that the vast majority of people who have ever been to space have been rich white men? Not to mention the extremely problematic imperialistic undertones of the entire American space program. Anyone who isn't from a privileged background is again ostracized by your words.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
ywnbaw
- tomlockwood 4y ago
  OK
- bitwize 4y ago
  And your favorite hategrooming site will be blackholed by Tier 1s, kiwi.
  - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
    that lasted for about two days. another great victory for the 41%
    - tomlockwood 4y ago
      Rent free!
matbatt38 4y ago
Thx for saying it!
dutchCourage 4y ago
It seems that some people take societal change as an attack on who they are as a person. Calling a mixed group "guys" isn't that big of a deal. But considering how computer science skews heavily towards men, it sounds tone deaf to double down when asked not do it. Because you'll have teams with one or two women for a dozen men, and because these women have been in groups with similar women/men ratios their whole careers, we need to make extra efforts to make sure they feel included. It's not going to fix the gender disparity on its own. It's just a small effort to show some good will. This is not a good hill to die on. I expected a more nuanced take on Hacker News.

35amxn35 4y ago

On the contrary, you need an echo chamber in order to push this idea. Most people are tired of being lectured on what's offensive/not inclusive and constantly walking on eggshells, and it's beginning to show. The Buzzfeed era is over.

tomlockwood 4y ago
> Most people are tired of being lectured on what's offensive/not inclusive Conservatives have been saying this forever, and its not coming true. They said it about gay slurs and racism and have been saying it forever about sexism. They're born to lose and can't stop complaining about how Being Appropriate at Work is so hard These Days.
- 35amxn35 4y ago
  No, it's not only definitely coming true, it's been happening for a while now and it's becoming mainstream. Here's a very neutral video on the topic: https://youtu.be/fKBLn--BBdg https://youtu.be/fKBLn--BBdg. I think the peak was around the late 2010s.
  - tomlockwood 4y ago
    Nah, conservatives have thought this forever and they probably listened to voices that complained about women being too into "hookup culture" and "cancelling" also. This channel's bias is clear. No new news here. This echo chamber y'all have made for yourselves is airtight.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Most people are tired of being lectured on what's offensive/not inclusive and constantly walking on eggshells, and it's beginning to show The first time I heard this from the political right was about “political correctness” when I was in grade school nearly 40 years ago. I don't see any evidence that it is any more true now than it was then.
bitwize 4y ago
Autres temps, autres moeurs. It's 2022, and high time to retire gendered language in mixed-gender contexts. No "guys", no "guys and gals", no "ladies and gentlemen". Gender is a spectrum, not a binary, and there are plenty of neutral expressions you can use like "beautiful people" or "fellow space travelers". The safety of the marginalized trumps the comfort of the privileged. Those tired of being lectured can deal with the change; those marginalized by erasure of their identity by the very language they speak must fight harder to be included in the face of such erasure,
- googlryas 4y ago
  Why don't we just redefine guys to be gender neutral, instead of dropping it entirely? It's not like it has a problematic history.
  - 35amxn35 4y ago
    The GP was being sardonic, but if you spend a little while in twitter and discord and you'll find some people out there really are a few cards shy of a full deck. The problem is that they are also the loudest. Truth be told, I think they always existed but the internet has enabled them to display and strengthen their lunacy.
- 35amxn35 4y ago
  Lol, this is 10/10 satire. The scary part is that many lunatics think this way unironically. Books will be written about this time in history.
  - tomlockwood 4y ago
    > Books will be written about this time in history. Could you just read this again and think about it a little? Amazing zinger there.
- NackerHughes 4y ago
  "Beautiful people" is a horribly discriminative term. It excludes everyone who isn't in line with unrealistic modern Western beauty standards, and makes anyone who's ever been called "ugly" or had a comment made about their appearance feel shut out of the conversation. "Fellow space travelers" is similarly exclusionary. Did you consider at all that the vast majority of people who have ever been to space have been rich white men? Not to mention the extremely problematic imperialistic undertones of the entire American space program. Anyone who isn't from a privileged background is again ostracized by your words.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

throwaway0x7E6 4y ago

ywnbaw

tomlockwood 4y ago
OK
bitwize 4y ago
And your favorite hategrooming site will be blackholed by Tier 1s, kiwi.
- throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
  that lasted for about two days. another great victory for the 41%
  - tomlockwood 4y ago
    Rent free!

matbatt38 4y ago

Thx for saying it!

dutchCourage 4y ago

It seems that some people take societal change as an attack on who they are as a person. Calling a mixed group "guys" isn't that big of a deal. But considering how computer science skews heavily towards men, it sounds tone deaf to double down when asked not do it. Because you'll have teams with one or two women for a dozen men, and because these women have been in groups with similar women/men ratios their whole careers, we need to make extra efforts to make sure they feel included. It's not going to fix the gender disparity on its own. It's just a small effort to show some good will. This is not a good hill to die on. I expected a more nuanced take on Hacker News.