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That's an embarrassingly ignorant statement. US sat out the war while the rest of the world was being devastated. While Europe and Asia suffered massive destruc

That's an embarrassingly ignorant statement. US sat out the war while the rest of the world was being devastated. While Europe and Asia suffered massive destruction, US was building out its industrial base, Then when the war ended, US invested into rebuilding western Europe turning it into its vassal. Meanwhile, USSR had to rebuild all on its own while being plunged into the Cold War by the US. The people who were "fleeing" were the top talent like scientists and engineers who could use hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of free education they received to make huge amounts of money in the west.

zen21 4y ago
vassal?
- yogthos 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal
  - zen21 4y ago
    That article says nothing about Europe after WW2. Seems like an outdated term.
    - yogthos 4y ago
      It's a term that accurately describes the relationship between US and Europe. US provides bulk of security for Europe, and in exchange Europe is politically subservient to US. For a deeper discussion, I highly encourage you to watch this interview with Michael Hudson where he explains the nature of the relationship in detail https://youtu.be/E_zY44YClCY https://youtu.be/E_zY44YClCY
      - zen21 4y ago
        If you’re talking about NATO, that’s a treaty organization that doesn’t include political subservience.
        yogthos 4y ago
        I have a bridge to sell you.
        zen21 4y ago
        Statements like that are normally used when no compelling argument is available.
        yogthos 4y ago
        If Europe committing economic suicide on the behest of the US isn't a compelling argument, I don't know what is.
        zen21 4y ago
        Europe seems surprisingly alive for someone who has committed ‘suicide’.
        yogthos 4y ago
        well let's just see how 'alive' Europe is Inflation is in double digits already https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/business/economy/eurozone-inflation-gdp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/business/economy/eurozone... energy prices are going through the roof https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/10/26/energy-bills-are-soaring-in-europe-what-are-countries-doing-to-help-you-pay-them https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/10/26/energy-bills-are-so... steel mills are shutting down https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-25/european-steelmakers-will-shut-more-furnaces-ssab-ceo-warns https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-25/european-... factories are shutting down https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2022/10/12/europe-s-energy-crisis-risks-forcing-factories-across-the-continent-to-relocate-shut-down_6000015_143.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2022/10/12/europe-s... manufacturing activity is all time low, and now there are talks of deindustrialization https://english.almayadeen.net/news/economics/eu-to-backtrack-to-de-industrialization-due-to-energy-crisis https://english.almayadeen.net/news/economics/eu-to-backtrac... nearly 70% of Europe's ammonia production has been halted since August due to high gas prices, meaning no fertilizer for spring https://www.freshplaza.com/africa/article/9475830/nearly-70-of-europe-s-ammonia-production-has-been-halted-since-august-due-to-high-gas-prices/ https://www.freshplaza.com/africa/article/9475830/nearly-70-... There are strikes and growing protests across many European countries as people are losing their jobs and are no longer able to afford to pay their bills. But yeah, aside from that Europe's totally alive and everything is fine. You clearly have no clue regarding the subject you're attempting to debate here.
WalterBright 4y ago
> That's an embarrassingly ignorant statement Really? I've seen the Wall. I've gone through Checkpoint Charlie in 1969 and visited East Berlin. I saw the barbed wire, the machine guns, the tank traps, all obviously pointed east to keep people from escaping. I have friends who grew up under Soviet domination. I have a number of books on live in the USSR. Your version of the USSR won't fly. P.S. You mentioned lots of doctors in the USSR. That may or may not be true. In a thread on Chernobyl on Reddit a while back, people who lived there at the time of the disaster mentioned that while root canals were free, there was no anesthetic. Yah, no thanks. You can live in a communist paradise if you like, but include me out. Enjoy the wall keeping you in.
- yogthos 4y ago
  I literally grew up in USSR, so unlike you I have direct lived experience. I can guarantee you that nobody I've ever met was thinking about escaping anywhere. Vast majority of people lived happy lives without many of the worries people in the west have today. For example, nobody worried that they're going to lose their job and end up on the street, or that they wouldn't be able to retire in dignity. It's impossible to describe how much stress this removes from people's lives. However, the original point here was that the Soviet revolution improved conditions for the people far more rapidly than US has. As all the sources I've linked above clearly show, the quality of life saw drastic improvements happen at a rate never seen in capitalist countries like the US.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > at a rate All they did was start using technology and techniques already developed by the capitalist countries. Of course it's going to be quick. Buying a modern tractor is a great leap over a horse drawn plow. Even so, the USSR was never able to feed itself. In the 1980s, Kansas was known as the "Breadbasket of the Soviet Union". The Soviets also overlooked the illegal capitalist black market, because the planned economy simply couldn't meet its citizens' needs. > I can guarantee you that nobody I've ever met was thinking about escaping anywhere The Soviet Bloc didn't spend a significant percentage of their GDP on the Iron Curtain for no reason. There wouldn't have been anyone left in East Berlin if the wall wasn't built. > Vast majority of people lived happy lives The state of peoples' happiness tends to be a constant regardless of their economic status. In any case, why do you think the Soviets jammed western TV signals? Why do you think that soviet citizens would stop tourists on the street and try to buy their blue jeans? Why do you think the Soviets wouldn't allow travel abroad for anyone who didn't have family that was held hostage until the person returned? > without many of the worries people in the west have today People in the US don't worry about being sent to the gulag slave labor camps. When you're completely dependent on the state for your job, apartment, etc., that can all be taken away by bureaucratic whim. Off to the gulag for saying the wrong thing, or offending your local party commissar.

zen21 4y ago

vassal?

yogthos 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal
- zen21 4y ago
  That article says nothing about Europe after WW2. Seems like an outdated term.
  - yogthos 4y ago
    It's a term that accurately describes the relationship between US and Europe. US provides bulk of security for Europe, and in exchange Europe is politically subservient to US. For a deeper discussion, I highly encourage you to watch this interview with Michael Hudson where he explains the nature of the relationship in detail https://youtu.be/E_zY44YClCY https://youtu.be/E_zY44YClCY
    - zen21 4y ago
      If you’re talking about NATO, that’s a treaty organization that doesn’t include political subservience.
      - yogthos 4y ago
        I have a bridge to sell you.
        zen21 4y ago
        Statements like that are normally used when no compelling argument is available.
        yogthos 4y ago
        If Europe committing economic suicide on the behest of the US isn't a compelling argument, I don't know what is.
        zen21 4y ago
        Europe seems surprisingly alive for someone who has committed ‘suicide’.
        yogthos 4y ago
        well let's just see how 'alive' Europe is Inflation is in double digits already https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/business/economy/eurozone-inflation-gdp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/business/economy/eurozone... energy prices are going through the roof https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/10/26/energy-bills-are-soaring-in-europe-what-are-countries-doing-to-help-you-pay-them https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/10/26/energy-bills-are-so... steel mills are shutting down https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-25/european-steelmakers-will-shut-more-furnaces-ssab-ceo-warns https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-25/european-... factories are shutting down https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2022/10/12/europe-s-energy-crisis-risks-forcing-factories-across-the-continent-to-relocate-shut-down_6000015_143.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2022/10/12/europe-s... manufacturing activity is all time low, and now there are talks of deindustrialization https://english.almayadeen.net/news/economics/eu-to-backtrack-to-de-industrialization-due-to-energy-crisis https://english.almayadeen.net/news/economics/eu-to-backtrac... nearly 70% of Europe's ammonia production has been halted since August due to high gas prices, meaning no fertilizer for spring https://www.freshplaza.com/africa/article/9475830/nearly-70-of-europe-s-ammonia-production-has-been-halted-since-august-due-to-high-gas-prices/ https://www.freshplaza.com/africa/article/9475830/nearly-70-... There are strikes and growing protests across many European countries as people are losing their jobs and are no longer able to afford to pay their bills. But yeah, aside from that Europe's totally alive and everything is fine. You clearly have no clue regarding the subject you're attempting to debate here.

WalterBright 4y ago

> That's an embarrassingly ignorant statement Really? I've seen the Wall. I've gone through Checkpoint Charlie in 1969 and visited East Berlin. I saw the barbed wire, the machine guns, the tank traps, all obviously pointed east to keep people from escaping. I have friends who grew up under Soviet domination. I have a number of books on live in the USSR. Your version of the USSR won't fly. P.S. You mentioned lots of doctors in the USSR. That may or may not be true. In a thread on Chernobyl on Reddit a while back, people who lived there at the time of the disaster mentioned that while root canals were free, there was no anesthetic. Yah, no thanks. You can live in a communist paradise if you like, but include me out. Enjoy the wall keeping you in.

yogthos 4y ago
I literally grew up in USSR, so unlike you I have direct lived experience. I can guarantee you that nobody I've ever met was thinking about escaping anywhere. Vast majority of people lived happy lives without many of the worries people in the west have today. For example, nobody worried that they're going to lose their job and end up on the street, or that they wouldn't be able to retire in dignity. It's impossible to describe how much stress this removes from people's lives. However, the original point here was that the Soviet revolution improved conditions for the people far more rapidly than US has. As all the sources I've linked above clearly show, the quality of life saw drastic improvements happen at a rate never seen in capitalist countries like the US.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > at a rate All they did was start using technology and techniques already developed by the capitalist countries. Of course it's going to be quick. Buying a modern tractor is a great leap over a horse drawn plow. Even so, the USSR was never able to feed itself. In the 1980s, Kansas was known as the "Breadbasket of the Soviet Union". The Soviets also overlooked the illegal capitalist black market, because the planned economy simply couldn't meet its citizens' needs. > I can guarantee you that nobody I've ever met was thinking about escaping anywhere The Soviet Bloc didn't spend a significant percentage of their GDP on the Iron Curtain for no reason. There wouldn't have been anyone left in East Berlin if the wall wasn't built. > Vast majority of people lived happy lives The state of peoples' happiness tends to be a constant regardless of their economic status. In any case, why do you think the Soviets jammed western TV signals? Why do you think that soviet citizens would stop tourists on the street and try to buy their blue jeans? Why do you think the Soviets wouldn't allow travel abroad for anyone who didn't have family that was held hostage until the person returned? > without many of the worries people in the west have today People in the US don't worry about being sent to the gulag slave labor camps. When you're completely dependent on the state for your job, apartment, etc., that can all be taken away by bureaucratic whim. Off to the gulag for saying the wrong thing, or offending your local party commissar.