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This indicates that the value was propped up by market manipulation. I have no problem with a crash like this, as I have no exposure to centralized * exchanges.

by _qqm5 4y ago

This indicates that the value was propped up by market manipulation. I have no problem with a crash like this, as I have no exposure to centralized * exchanges. I also don't have illusions about price action. I don't invest into crypto to make a quick buck. I invest because I fundamentally oppose traditional finance.

twblalock 4y ago
Really, no exposure to centralized finance? You only use crypto to pay your rent and buy your groceries and your clothing? Your employer pays you in crypto?
- _qqm5 4y ago
  My bad, I meant centralized exchanges, not finance. Edited my comment. > You only use crypto to pay your rent and buy your groceries and your clothing? Your employer pays you in crypto? Oh how I wish that was true.
  - WoahNoun 4y ago
    So in purchasing power terms, you have significant exposure since you now have to sell X% more of your holdings to pay fiat denominated rent.
    - _qqm5 4y ago
      That's one perspective sure. You could also say that I have to pay X% more compared to the inflated paper gains I had before.
MrMan 4y ago
crypto *is* traditional finance. whenever humans transact with each other, we reify the behavioral mechanisms which define us as a species. we cannot help but create economies, to trade and transact. all finance is "traditional" finance until our biology changes and new emergent dynamics and equilibriums establish themselves. however thermodynamics, statistics and other math might also have a lot to say on the matter. there is no such thing as traditional finance, just finance.
- _qqm5 4y ago
  When people talk about traditional finance, we mostly refer to the existing technologies for issuance of currency, settlement of fiat transactions, and the debt hierarchy. Of course finance is an incredibly nuanced word. To quote V. Buterin: > Finance can be viewed as a set of patterns that naturally emerge in many kinds of systems that do not attempt to prevent collusion
  - MrMan 4y ago
    you are displaying a lot of foolish ignorance and compounding it with misplaced certitude but in good faith and a spirit of wide eyed curiosity I applaud your lack of understanding of finance. also you get a lot of credit for using the word "nuance" as if it somehow changes the definition of the word finance. finance, trading, barter, humans will not allow collusion to continue unchecked. so finance being defined partly as the lack of check against collision is pure propaganda by Buterin and you are his mark. the only reason the collusion rife in the crypto space is so unchecked is because its a big casino constructed for you to play in by people like SBF, CZ, V. Buterin. The whales represent a huge cartel. The drama of the last few days is a parable of collusion, retail being tricked into gambling their life savings, retail being fed lies about how the word is and how the world is not, lies which are easy to disprove. you are a classic retail mark, being fed and regurgitating marketing and propaganda to encourage you to play your part. look up retail FX trading manias in Japan in the early to mid 00's as recent past as prologue.
    - _qqm5 4y ago
      First of all, the "collusion" Buterin is referring to is a game -theoretic term and is precisely defined. Based on your response I'm guessing you are not familiar with his blog post. Calling something propaganda without being familiar with the source is probably the purest form of irony.
    - zen21 4y ago
      > you are displaying a lot of foolish ignorance and compounding it with misplaced certitude but in good faith and a spirit of wide eyed curiosity I applaud your lack of understanding of finance. Why is this kind of defensive retort so commonly seen in discussions about the value of cryptocurrency?
JacobThreeThree 4y ago
>This indicates that the value was propped up by market manipulation. I'd wager the propping was part manipulation and part speculative mania, of which the latter his been dispelled.
- twblalock 4y ago
  I think the mania is still there, based on some of the reactions I see defending crypto. But a lot of people must have bailed out to make the Bitcoin price drop so much. I'll believe the mania is over when Bitcoin reverts to pre-2017 prices and stays that way forever. Honestly I've been considering buying some because I suspect the dip will be temporary, but ultimately I'm not that foolish with my money.
potatototoo99 4y ago
Dare I say - based.
p1necone 4y ago
> the value was propped up by market manipulation The entire crypto market is nothing but[1] market manipulation and speculation. If that goes away your crypto will be virtually worthless. [1] pre-empting the "but it's used for practical things in countries with crumbling economies instead of the local currency" argument: yes, but that's such a tiny portion of total market cap that it probably doesn't affect the value of your holdings by any meaningful amount.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > [1] pre-empting the "but it's used for practical things in countries with crumbling economies instead of the local currency" argument: yes, but that's such a tiny portion of total market cap that it probably doesn't affect the value of your holdings by any meaningful amount. Also good ol' fiat dollars are better than crypto for that use case in pretty much every way.

by _qqm5 4y ago

twblalock 4y ago

Really, no exposure to centralized finance? You only use crypto to pay your rent and buy your groceries and your clothing? Your employer pays you in crypto?

_qqm5 4y ago
My bad, I meant centralized exchanges, not finance. Edited my comment. > You only use crypto to pay your rent and buy your groceries and your clothing? Your employer pays you in crypto? Oh how I wish that was true.
- WoahNoun 4y ago
  So in purchasing power terms, you have significant exposure since you now have to sell X% more of your holdings to pay fiat denominated rent.
  - _qqm5 4y ago
    That's one perspective sure. You could also say that I have to pay X% more compared to the inflated paper gains I had before.

MrMan 4y ago

crypto *is* traditional finance. whenever humans transact with each other, we reify the behavioral mechanisms which define us as a species. we cannot help but create economies, to trade and transact. all finance is "traditional" finance until our biology changes and new emergent dynamics and equilibriums establish themselves. however thermodynamics, statistics and other math might also have a lot to say on the matter. there is no such thing as traditional finance, just finance.

_qqm5 4y ago
When people talk about traditional finance, we mostly refer to the existing technologies for issuance of currency, settlement of fiat transactions, and the debt hierarchy. Of course finance is an incredibly nuanced word. To quote V. Buterin: > Finance can be viewed as a set of patterns that naturally emerge in many kinds of systems that do not attempt to prevent collusion
- MrMan 4y ago
  you are displaying a lot of foolish ignorance and compounding it with misplaced certitude but in good faith and a spirit of wide eyed curiosity I applaud your lack of understanding of finance. also you get a lot of credit for using the word "nuance" as if it somehow changes the definition of the word finance. finance, trading, barter, humans will not allow collusion to continue unchecked. so finance being defined partly as the lack of check against collision is pure propaganda by Buterin and you are his mark. the only reason the collusion rife in the crypto space is so unchecked is because its a big casino constructed for you to play in by people like SBF, CZ, V. Buterin. The whales represent a huge cartel. The drama of the last few days is a parable of collusion, retail being tricked into gambling their life savings, retail being fed lies about how the word is and how the world is not, lies which are easy to disprove. you are a classic retail mark, being fed and regurgitating marketing and propaganda to encourage you to play your part. look up retail FX trading manias in Japan in the early to mid 00's as recent past as prologue.
  - _qqm5 4y ago
    First of all, the "collusion" Buterin is referring to is a game -theoretic term and is precisely defined. Based on your response I'm guessing you are not familiar with his blog post. Calling something propaganda without being familiar with the source is probably the purest form of irony.
  - zen21 4y ago
    > you are displaying a lot of foolish ignorance and compounding it with misplaced certitude but in good faith and a spirit of wide eyed curiosity I applaud your lack of understanding of finance. Why is this kind of defensive retort so commonly seen in discussions about the value of cryptocurrency?

JacobThreeThree 4y ago

>This indicates that the value was propped up by market manipulation. I'd wager the propping was part manipulation and part speculative mania, of which the latter his been dispelled.

twblalock 4y ago
I think the mania is still there, based on some of the reactions I see defending crypto. But a lot of people must have bailed out to make the Bitcoin price drop so much. I'll believe the mania is over when Bitcoin reverts to pre-2017 prices and stays that way forever. Honestly I've been considering buying some because I suspect the dip will be temporary, but ultimately I'm not that foolish with my money.

potatototoo99 4y ago

Dare I say - based.

p1necone 4y ago

> the value was propped up by market manipulation The entire crypto market is nothing but[1] market manipulation and speculation. If that goes away your crypto will be virtually worthless. [1] pre-empting the "but it's used for practical things in countries with crumbling economies instead of the local currency" argument: yes, but that's such a tiny portion of total market cap that it probably doesn't affect the value of your holdings by any meaningful amount.

tablespoon 4y ago
> [1] pre-empting the "but it's used for practical things in countries with crumbling economies instead of the local currency" argument: yes, but that's such a tiny portion of total market cap that it probably doesn't affect the value of your holdings by any meaningful amount. Also good ol' fiat dollars are better than crypto for that use case in pretty much every way.