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There's a beautiful difference. Unlike in 2008, today - I can transact efficiently and safely without a bank account. This is currently not possible in traditi

by _qqm5 4y ago

There's a beautiful difference. Unlike in 2008, today - I can transact efficiently and safely without a bank account. This is currently not possible in traditional finance - Subsequently, none of my assets are locked. I have never stored assets in an exchange, and have no need to do so. - Exchanges can't ask daddy government to mint coins for a bailout. Tl;dr: exchanges and banks who think they can get away with being overleveraged, doing unbacked derivatives trading, lending without locates etc. are in for a bitter surprise. Crypto can't be gamed so easily and it shows.

twblalock 4y ago
The problem is, if these exchanges collapse, the value of that crypto you have will drop significantly. So yes, you still have your crypto assets, but there is a real chance they could end up being worthless. Even if you don't use exchanges, you are still exposed to their failure because they are major players in the market that determines the value of the cryptocurrencies. When major players in a market go bust, it's unlikely that any of the other market participants will end up unscathed. Given that crypto value is based solely on what other people are willing to pay for it, it really could go to zero. It probably won't go all the way to zero, but I'd still expect a significant drop.
- _qqm5 4y ago
  This indicates that the value was propped up by market manipulation. I have no problem with a crash like this, as I have no exposure to centralized * exchanges. I also don't have illusions about price action. I don't invest into crypto to make a quick buck. I invest because I fundamentally oppose traditional finance.
  - twblalock 4y ago
    Really, no exposure to centralized finance? You only use crypto to pay your rent and buy your groceries and your clothing? Your employer pays you in crypto?
    - _qqm5 4y ago
      My bad, I meant centralized exchanges, not finance. Edited my comment. > You only use crypto to pay your rent and buy your groceries and your clothing? Your employer pays you in crypto? Oh how I wish that was true.
      - WoahNoun 4y ago
        So in purchasing power terms, you have significant exposure since you now have to sell X% more of your holdings to pay fiat denominated rent.
        _qqm5 4y ago
        That's one perspective sure. You could also say that I have to pay X% more compared to the inflated paper gains I had before.
  - MrMan 4y ago
    crypto *is* traditional finance. whenever humans transact with each other, we reify the behavioral mechanisms which define us as a species. we cannot help but create economies, to trade and transact. all finance is "traditional" finance until our biology changes and new emergent dynamics and equilibriums establish themselves. however thermodynamics, statistics and other math might also have a lot to say on the matter. there is no such thing as traditional finance, just finance.
    - _qqm5 4y ago
      When people talk about traditional finance, we mostly refer to the existing technologies for issuance of currency, settlement of fiat transactions, and the debt hierarchy. Of course finance is an incredibly nuanced word. To quote V. Buterin: > Finance can be viewed as a set of patterns that naturally emerge in many kinds of systems that do not attempt to prevent collusion
      - MrMan 4y ago
        you are displaying a lot of foolish ignorance and compounding it with misplaced certitude but in good faith and a spirit of wide eyed curiosity I applaud your lack of understanding of finance. also you get a lot of credit for using the word "nuance" as if it somehow changes the definition of the word finance. finance, trading, barter, humans will not allow collusion to continue unchecked. so finance being defined partly as the lack of check against collision is pure propaganda by Buterin and you are his mark. the only reason the collusion rife in the crypto space is so unchecked is because its a big casino constructed for you to play in by people like SBF, CZ, V. Buterin. The whales represent a huge cartel. The drama of the last few days is a parable of collusion, retail being tricked into gambling their life savings, retail being fed lies about how the word is and how the world is not, lies which are easy to disprove. you are a classic retail mark, being fed and regurgitating marketing and propaganda to encourage you to play your part. look up retail FX trading manias in Japan in the early to mid 00's as recent past as prologue.
        _qqm5 4y ago
  - JacobThreeThree 4y ago
    >This indicates that the value was propped up by market manipulation. I'd wager the propping was part manipulation and part speculative mania, of which the latter his been dispelled.
    - twblalock 4y ago
      I think the mania is still there, based on some of the reactions I see defending crypto. But a lot of people must have bailed out to make the Bitcoin price drop so much. I'll believe the mania is over when Bitcoin reverts to pre-2017 prices and stays that way forever. Honestly I've been considering buying some because I suspect the dip will be temporary, but ultimately I'm not that foolish with my money.
  - potatototoo99 4y ago
    Dare I say - based.
  - p1necone 4y ago
    > the value was propped up by market manipulation The entire crypto market is nothing but[1] market manipulation and speculation. If that goes away your crypto will be virtually worthless. [1] pre-empting the "but it's used for practical things in countries with crumbling economies instead of the local currency" argument: yes, but that's such a tiny portion of total market cap that it probably doesn't affect the value of your holdings by any meaningful amount.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > [1] pre-empting the "but it's used for practical things in countries with crumbling economies instead of the local currency" argument: yes, but that's such a tiny portion of total market cap that it probably doesn't affect the value of your holdings by any meaningful amount. Also good ol' fiat dollars are better than crypto for that use case in pretty much every way.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
  Exchanges should not collapse if all they do is collect commissions from people trading. They collapse when they issue their own tokens and borrow hard assets against those very soft tokens.
  - rdtwo 4y ago
    Yeah the exchanges are collapsing because They all held positions and went exchanges. Although at some point they collapse for counter party risk
  - twblalock 4y ago
    Nobody in the crypto industry has the self-control to just be an exchange. The whole idea of crypto attracts the same people as other get-rich-quick schemes. Some scammers, some earnest people. But all ultimately lacking in self control.
- wruza 4y ago
  if these exchanges collapse, the value of that crypto you have will drop significantly The throne is never empty, right? We are probably still to find out if it’s worth sitting on long term, but since that genie left the bottle, I suspect it is.
woeirua 4y ago
Owning coins that can't be exchanged for anything is kind of a pointless endeavor, is it not? The value of most coins is going to zero as a result of this. Crypto is going to be a frigid wasteland after this for quite a while.
- _qqm5 4y ago
  There are tons of vendors I actively use that accept crypto. Not as much as I'd like, but hardly no one. But yeah, you're right, a currency nobody uses is obviously worthless. I'm attempting to drive adoption so that they CAN be exchanged for goods and services.
  - vermilingua 4y ago
    And when the mom-and-pop bookstore down the road can no longer exchange their crypto for fiat (needed to pay their taxes), do you think they’ll keep accepting your crypto?
    - landemva 4y ago
      It depends on the government. "Crypto Currency Now Accepted For All State Tax Payments" https://tax.colorado.gov/cryptocurrency https://tax.colorado.gov/cryptocurrency
      - selectodude 4y ago
        "A sufficient amount of cryptocurrency to cover the tax, obligation and fees is converted to dollars" No it doesn't. Your crypto is not and will not be denominated in crypto. It's still dollars.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
        Good proxy for the promise and reality of crypto though - you need to interact with some shitty PayPal crypto platform and they charge you charge 1.8% for the luxury of doing so.
machina_ex_deus 4y ago
You sound just like one of those house owners with a fat mortgage on the eve of 2008. When you buy an asset from heavily leveraged market you get high risk even when you don't use leverage yourself.
- _qqm5 4y ago
  The crypto I buy is not leveraged, it's sitting in my wallet - unlike IOUs, stocks and derivatives. In crypto, leverage exists solely because of people who aren't doing self-custody and DeFi. They brought this upon themselves.
  - Forgeties79 4y ago
    Genuine question: what are you doing with that crypto anyway if not planning on cashing out back into fiat currency again? My understanding is that the vast majority of cryptos are useless for actually paying for anything and the vast majority of businesses still don’t accept them anyway. So unless you are basically only using and holding BTC (which has a relatively small market of goods that can actually be purchased with it on a daily basis), I’m not really sure what good that crypto is doing for you other than sitting around as a speculative asset which will need to be converted via an exchange.
    - _qqm5 4y ago
      Genuine answer: I'm holding my crypto assets until I can exchange them for the goods and services I need. I never exchange any crypto back to fiat. I don't "invest" to make money. It's a currency. I buy it to use it. I might have to hold it for 5 years, maybe 10, maybe 30, or maybe I'll die and crypto will never be successful (a sad thought but possible). But in the meantime I'll do what I can to improve adoption. That includes working on core protocols, improving UX for non-technical users, or writing software that helps vendors with payment integration. I also make an effort to approach business and show that there is demand for crypto payments. This is literally the only way to make crypto successful. All this price action non-sense, and people wanting to get fiat-rich is just unproductive noise to me.

by _qqm5 4y ago

twblalock 4y ago

The problem is, if these exchanges collapse, the value of that crypto you have will drop significantly. So yes, you still have your crypto assets, but there is a real chance they could end up being worthless. Even if you don't use exchanges, you are still exposed to their failure because they are major players in the market that determines the value of the cryptocurrencies. When major players in a market go bust, it's unlikely that any of the other market participants will end up unscathed. Given that crypto value is based solely on what other people are willing to pay for it, it really could go to zero. It probably won't go all the way to zero, but I'd still expect a significant drop.

_qqm5 4y ago
This indicates that the value was propped up by market manipulation. I have no problem with a crash like this, as I have no exposure to centralized * exchanges. I also don't have illusions about price action. I don't invest into crypto to make a quick buck. I invest because I fundamentally oppose traditional finance.
- twblalock 4y ago
  Really, no exposure to centralized finance? You only use crypto to pay your rent and buy your groceries and your clothing? Your employer pays you in crypto?
  - _qqm5 4y ago
    My bad, I meant centralized exchanges, not finance. Edited my comment. > You only use crypto to pay your rent and buy your groceries and your clothing? Your employer pays you in crypto? Oh how I wish that was true.
    - WoahNoun 4y ago
      So in purchasing power terms, you have significant exposure since you now have to sell X% more of your holdings to pay fiat denominated rent.
      - _qqm5 4y ago
        That's one perspective sure. You could also say that I have to pay X% more compared to the inflated paper gains I had before.
- MrMan 4y ago
  crypto *is* traditional finance. whenever humans transact with each other, we reify the behavioral mechanisms which define us as a species. we cannot help but create economies, to trade and transact. all finance is "traditional" finance until our biology changes and new emergent dynamics and equilibriums establish themselves. however thermodynamics, statistics and other math might also have a lot to say on the matter. there is no such thing as traditional finance, just finance.
  - _qqm5 4y ago
    When people talk about traditional finance, we mostly refer to the existing technologies for issuance of currency, settlement of fiat transactions, and the debt hierarchy. Of course finance is an incredibly nuanced word. To quote V. Buterin: > Finance can be viewed as a set of patterns that naturally emerge in many kinds of systems that do not attempt to prevent collusion
    - MrMan 4y ago
      you are displaying a lot of foolish ignorance and compounding it with misplaced certitude but in good faith and a spirit of wide eyed curiosity I applaud your lack of understanding of finance. also you get a lot of credit for using the word "nuance" as if it somehow changes the definition of the word finance. finance, trading, barter, humans will not allow collusion to continue unchecked. so finance being defined partly as the lack of check against collision is pure propaganda by Buterin and you are his mark. the only reason the collusion rife in the crypto space is so unchecked is because its a big casino constructed for you to play in by people like SBF, CZ, V. Buterin. The whales represent a huge cartel. The drama of the last few days is a parable of collusion, retail being tricked into gambling their life savings, retail being fed lies about how the word is and how the world is not, lies which are easy to disprove. you are a classic retail mark, being fed and regurgitating marketing and propaganda to encourage you to play your part. look up retail FX trading manias in Japan in the early to mid 00's as recent past as prologue.
      - _qqm5 4y ago
- JacobThreeThree 4y ago
  >This indicates that the value was propped up by market manipulation. I'd wager the propping was part manipulation and part speculative mania, of which the latter his been dispelled.
  - twblalock 4y ago
    I think the mania is still there, based on some of the reactions I see defending crypto. But a lot of people must have bailed out to make the Bitcoin price drop so much. I'll believe the mania is over when Bitcoin reverts to pre-2017 prices and stays that way forever. Honestly I've been considering buying some because I suspect the dip will be temporary, but ultimately I'm not that foolish with my money.
- potatototoo99 4y ago
  Dare I say - based.
- p1necone 4y ago
  > the value was propped up by market manipulation The entire crypto market is nothing but[1] market manipulation and speculation. If that goes away your crypto will be virtually worthless. [1] pre-empting the "but it's used for practical things in countries with crumbling economies instead of the local currency" argument: yes, but that's such a tiny portion of total market cap that it probably doesn't affect the value of your holdings by any meaningful amount.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > [1] pre-empting the "but it's used for practical things in countries with crumbling economies instead of the local currency" argument: yes, but that's such a tiny portion of total market cap that it probably doesn't affect the value of your holdings by any meaningful amount. Also good ol' fiat dollars are better than crypto for that use case in pretty much every way.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
Exchanges should not collapse if all they do is collect commissions from people trading. They collapse when they issue their own tokens and borrow hard assets against those very soft tokens.
- rdtwo 4y ago
  Yeah the exchanges are collapsing because They all held positions and went exchanges. Although at some point they collapse for counter party risk
- twblalock 4y ago
  Nobody in the crypto industry has the self-control to just be an exchange. The whole idea of crypto attracts the same people as other get-rich-quick schemes. Some scammers, some earnest people. But all ultimately lacking in self control.
wruza 4y ago
if these exchanges collapse, the value of that crypto you have will drop significantly The throne is never empty, right? We are probably still to find out if it’s worth sitting on long term, but since that genie left the bottle, I suspect it is.

woeirua 4y ago

Owning coins that can't be exchanged for anything is kind of a pointless endeavor, is it not? The value of most coins is going to zero as a result of this. Crypto is going to be a frigid wasteland after this for quite a while.

_qqm5 4y ago
There are tons of vendors I actively use that accept crypto. Not as much as I'd like, but hardly no one. But yeah, you're right, a currency nobody uses is obviously worthless. I'm attempting to drive adoption so that they CAN be exchanged for goods and services.
- vermilingua 4y ago
  And when the mom-and-pop bookstore down the road can no longer exchange their crypto for fiat (needed to pay their taxes), do you think they’ll keep accepting your crypto?
  - landemva 4y ago
    It depends on the government. "Crypto Currency Now Accepted For All State Tax Payments" https://tax.colorado.gov/cryptocurrency https://tax.colorado.gov/cryptocurrency
    - selectodude 4y ago
      "A sufficient amount of cryptocurrency to cover the tax, obligation and fees is converted to dollars" No it doesn't. Your crypto is not and will not be denominated in crypto. It's still dollars.
      - mikeyouse 4y ago
        Good proxy for the promise and reality of crypto though - you need to interact with some shitty PayPal crypto platform and they charge you charge 1.8% for the luxury of doing so.

machina_ex_deus 4y ago

You sound just like one of those house owners with a fat mortgage on the eve of 2008. When you buy an asset from heavily leveraged market you get high risk even when you don't use leverage yourself.

_qqm5 4y ago
The crypto I buy is not leveraged, it's sitting in my wallet - unlike IOUs, stocks and derivatives. In crypto, leverage exists solely because of people who aren't doing self-custody and DeFi. They brought this upon themselves.
- Forgeties79 4y ago
  Genuine question: what are you doing with that crypto anyway if not planning on cashing out back into fiat currency again? My understanding is that the vast majority of cryptos are useless for actually paying for anything and the vast majority of businesses still don’t accept them anyway. So unless you are basically only using and holding BTC (which has a relatively small market of goods that can actually be purchased with it on a daily basis), I’m not really sure what good that crypto is doing for you other than sitting around as a speculative asset which will need to be converted via an exchange.
  - _qqm5 4y ago
    Genuine answer: I'm holding my crypto assets until I can exchange them for the goods and services I need. I never exchange any crypto back to fiat. I don't "invest" to make money. It's a currency. I buy it to use it. I might have to hold it for 5 years, maybe 10, maybe 30, or maybe I'll die and crypto will never be successful (a sad thought but possible). But in the meantime I'll do what I can to improve adoption. That includes working on core protocols, improving UX for non-technical users, or writing software that helps vendors with payment integration. I also make an effort to approach business and show that there is demand for crypto payments. This is literally the only way to make crypto successful. All this price action non-sense, and people wanting to get fiat-rich is just unproductive noise to me.