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What's even more funny is that Binance make it look like they are a stable financial institution, and it's thanks to their high standards that they won't acquir

What's even more funny is that Binance make it look like they are a stable financial institution, and it's thanks to their high standards that they won't acquire FTX. Binance is most probably much more of a fraud than FTX. Binance doesn't even have physical headquarters in any country in this world - and the reason is that they are being actively investigated or banned almost everywhere.

mrtksn 4y ago
I don't know about it, Binance has become a gold standard in crypto exchange business. Here on HN it was always about Coinbase likely because its an American company but for the rest of the world, it's all about Binance and the rest of the world is huge. How huge? About an order of magnitude to Coinbase. If Binance goes, crypto isn't coming back.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Binance has become a gold standard in crypto exchange business This was FTX and Alameda like a week ago.
  - potatototoo99 4y ago
    Not really, FTX was barely in the top 10 for spot, though better in futures. Plus there are DEX and AMM.
    - nu11ptr 4y ago
      FTX was #2 globally. Binance is #1. I'm not sure exactly what ranking mechanism is used to determine that, but that seems to be consensus from a variety of sources.
      - Nathanba 4y ago
        I've never even heard of FTX and I've been in the crypto space for many years. Binance however was always near the top since it came out. There was one american exchange that used to be nr.1 but became irrelevant after they weren't allowed to serve non-americans anymore. I can't remember the name and it isn't in the top 300 anymore, maybe they had to shut down. EDIT: I just checked and FTX was only founded 3 years ago
        jjitz 4y ago
        I hate to gatekeep, but I find it pretty impossible that you are "in the crypto space" in any meaningful sense but somehow have not heard of FTX. That's like being "in the crypto space" but not knowing what Ethereum is.
        jcpham2 4y ago
        Unfortunately I can echo the crypto space sentiment for as long as such an expression can exist I’ve never touched Bitfinex/FTX/Binance or any exchange that allows options or leverage. I am a US citizen. Bitstamp Gemini or Coinbase are the only ones I’ll touch And I’m pissed off that coinbase removed the BTC/USDC trading pair because it had low volume Why will I not touch them? That’s a long story but I see history repeating itself - fractional reserve Bitcoin banks paying ponzi interest
        BLKNSLVR 4y ago
        How about Kraken? They've weathered a few winters.
        jcpham2 4y ago
        Kraken I trust but I've never used. For perspective, I've traded roughly a million dollars worth of BTC specifically. Most of that was as the knife was falling after the 2017/2018 ATH. DCA-ing since then, selloff at the top in 2021, pull my limit sell orders, let it crash. Doing it again now, kinda hard not to take advantage of deflationary 4-year super cycles
  - FormerBandmate 4y ago
    FTX was actually based out of a headquarters and wasn’t on the run from governments.
    - chrisco255 4y ago
      And all the while was actually committing fraud. Pays to pay to play.
- naveen99 4y ago
  mtgox was bigger too. There are other reasons for a crypto winter like high interest rates and a newly credible us central bank. Rest of the world is not bigger when it comes to non residential real estate: private equity, venture, tech, finance.
  - miohtama 4y ago
    MtGox had over 80% of volume during its peak. However there wasn’t really any competition. Bitstamp and handful of crap exchanges. Coinbase was an OTC frontend.
  - funstuff007 4y ago
    speaking of mtgox, where's a good place to sell my MtG cards now?
    - thom 4y ago
      Somewhat ironic that popular MtG podcast Limited Resources is sponsored by FTX (and popular card marketplace Channel Fireball).
    - gpderetta 4y ago
      in Europe, cardmarket.com is very good.
    - everforward 4y ago
      Europe is usually CardMarket. In the US TCGPlayer seems the most popular with CardKingdom behind them. I've used both TCGPlayer and CardKingdom on the buy side without issues, but you can also list cards for sale (no idea what the process is like). If you want to get maximum value in exchange for doing more legwork and probably assuming more risk, Ebay or Facebook groups.
- dogman144 4y ago
  Correct until the last I think. Every exchange is looking international because they know what you’re saying too. If Binance goes, there’s a mix of enough international toeholds from regulated exchanges and enough defi to keep the markets live.
- themagician 4y ago
  All exchanges suffer the same fate. There is just no reason for exchanges to be solvent. The industry is unregulated and there is too much money to be made. Binace will go. Coinbase will go. I believe "crypto" will always be around. It's an MLM for the digital age. It will always be nonsense. Bitcoin, however, I do believe is different.
- cwkoss 4y ago
  Binance does have significantly lower trading fees than coinbase - so while they do have about 8x the trade volume, it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison, because lower fees mean tighter spreads and more money bouncing around within the system per unit of (deposit -> withdrawal in different currency) So, I'm not sure "an order of magnitude larger" is necessarily an accurate description. Wouldn't say it's inaccurate either, but just missing some nuance.
- melenaboija 4y ago
  > If Binance goes, crypto isn't coming back Interesting statement for a decentralized asset
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    What decentralised asset?
    - melenaboija 4y ago
      Sorry, crypto. I don’t know much about the topic and sometimes I get confused with the concepts crypto, currency, non fungible, token and I call it asset asset to generalize. So, what makes a crypto to be a crypto?
      - mrtksn 4y ago
        That's just the label, nothing decentralised is left. See, as it turns out, to trade you need to find people and people are found in central locations. Okay, there are still many exchanges but this is mostly incidental and it makes sense to end up with single exchange eventually.
        TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
        I'm enjoying the irony that practical crypto could not possibly be less like an decentralised peer-to-peer system for exchanging value if it tried to be. As you soon as someone creates an exchange - and especially as soon as they start packaging funds into absolutely any kind of financial instrument/service - they've effectively reinvented deregulated banking with no deposit protection and extra risk.
        ausudhz 4y ago
        and additionally who run these exchange has no economical background whatsoever. Like an ignorant trying to reinvent the wheel into a squared one and poaching it as a new invention. But is "decentralized"...
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  If Binance goes, cryptocurrency is certainly coming back. Also, cryptography isn’t going anywhere.
  - ausudhz 4y ago
    cryptography was not invented for cryptocurrency, I don't understand why it should go anywhere lol It has many applications far beyond cryptos lol
    - bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
      I was lamenting that crypto means cryptocurrency instead of cryptography now.
jjtheblunt 4y ago
We could ask how long till Binance implodes.
rahen 4y ago
"Not your keys not your coins". I wonder how people can trust those CEX to store their funds. Private keys should be hosted on a cold wallet, period.
_23sd 4y ago
The question in my mind with Binance is how reliant they are on BTC. The non-BNB part of their SAFU (a pair of wallets they call an emergency insurance fund) is roughly half BTC, the other half being BUSD which I wouldn't 100% trust if Binance was in trouble. Could they survive a FTX-style panic if BTC had dropped below $10k? I hope so, at least.
- miohtama 4y ago
  BUSD is issued not by Binance, but by Paxos that is regulated in the state of New York under BitLicense. It is one of the toughest licenses to get in the world, so I would be surprised if BUSD somehow collapses.
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    Ah, if only that were true! Your claim smelled funny, so I looked it up: https://paxos.com/2022/04/07/busd-issued-by-paxos-on-ethereum-vs-busd-on-the-bnb-smart-chain/ https://paxos.com/2022/04/07/busd-issued-by-paxos-on-ethereu... Tl;Dr: Paxos issues something called BUSD on Ethereum, which is regulated. Binance issues something that's kinda sorta related but not really, that's fully unregulated, only usable in their private chain, ALSO called BUSD, that is just monopoly money. They happen to have the same name, but hey, you fell for it! Related quote from the link: "Paxos issues two US dollar-backed stablecoins – Pax Dollar (USDP) and Binance USD (BUSD) – that are overseen by the NYDFS. These two tokens are very similar in design and reserve operations because they are regulated. Paxos and NYDFS agreed to the terms of the token in advance of issuing – this includes the stipulation that USDP and BUSD only be issued by Paxos on the ethereum blockchain at this time. Our marketing partner for BUSD – Binance – issues a token on its BNB smart chain called Binance-Peg BUSD ... Note that Binance-Peg BUSD is strictly a Binance product; it is not issued by Paxos nor regulated by the NYDFS."
    - miohtama 4y ago
      Thank you for your smell comment. I am a nerd with bad hygiene, but people do not bring it up that often. Binance pegged USD is not printed out of thin air. It is a bridged token from Ethereum to other blockchains. Because how smart contracts work, Binance cannot manipulate Binance pegged USD supply unless they seriously break BNB Chain. You can verify the reserves and bridges here: https://www.binance.com/en/assets-proof https://www.binance.com/en/assets-proof If you do not believe this web page, you can also run your own node and ask it directly using JSON-RPC API. Thus any Binance pegged USD (and other bridged tokens) are 1:1 backed by matching token on Ethereum chain. Binance pegged USD is not different from any other bridged token on other bridges and chains and there is no reason to suspect any foul play here. Because it is transparent and on-chain there cannot be fraud. There could be, however, technical issues and hacks with the bridges. The reason why Paxos do not directly issue tokens on other chains is that they 1) likely do not have infrastructure for it yet 2) they are limited by commercial agreements or agreements with a regulator.
melony 4y ago
They are banned mainly because they like to skirt KYC and similar regulations. It doesn't mean their financial engineering is poor. Those two issues are completely orthogonal.
- EastSmith 4y ago
  Binance KYC's process is a joke. I've been using them for years, suddenly they needed more KYC and their automated process failed me more than 4 times in couple of months. Glad they failed me though, life turned out pretty great without me gambling on meme coins.
young_unixer 4y ago
> and the reason is that they are being actively investigated or banned almost everywhere. That's not an indication of anything wrong with Binance. A more plausible explanation is that the laws are too oppressive "almost everywhere".
bamazizi 4y ago
^this ... The whole space seems like a mirage
- lizknope 4y ago
  It seems like it because it is. No regulations, no protections, only idiots "invest" in this garbage. It's just one scam after another
  - lancesells 4y ago
    The only way to make a buck is for someone else to lose a buck. There's nothing else in the exchange here so it's just perverse. But I wouldn't call people idiots that invest but uninformed and/or desperate and/or uncaring. If someone has an extra $1000 in the bank they think what's the worst that can happen? It's a mistake but you can see how these exchanges are worth billions all of a sudden and the dollars being pulled in to make these billionaires have to come from someone else.

mrtksn 4y ago

I don't know about it, Binance has become a gold standard in crypto exchange business. Here on HN it was always about Coinbase likely because its an American company but for the rest of the world, it's all about Binance and the rest of the world is huge. How huge? About an order of magnitude to Coinbase. If Binance goes, crypto isn't coming back.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Binance has become a gold standard in crypto exchange business This was FTX and Alameda like a week ago.
- potatototoo99 4y ago
  Not really, FTX was barely in the top 10 for spot, though better in futures. Plus there are DEX and AMM.
  - nu11ptr 4y ago
    FTX was #2 globally. Binance is #1. I'm not sure exactly what ranking mechanism is used to determine that, but that seems to be consensus from a variety of sources.
    - Nathanba 4y ago
      I've never even heard of FTX and I've been in the crypto space for many years. Binance however was always near the top since it came out. There was one american exchange that used to be nr.1 but became irrelevant after they weren't allowed to serve non-americans anymore. I can't remember the name and it isn't in the top 300 anymore, maybe they had to shut down. EDIT: I just checked and FTX was only founded 3 years ago
      - jjitz 4y ago
        I hate to gatekeep, but I find it pretty impossible that you are "in the crypto space" in any meaningful sense but somehow have not heard of FTX. That's like being "in the crypto space" but not knowing what Ethereum is.
        jcpham2 4y ago
        Unfortunately I can echo the crypto space sentiment for as long as such an expression can exist I’ve never touched Bitfinex/FTX/Binance or any exchange that allows options or leverage. I am a US citizen. Bitstamp Gemini or Coinbase are the only ones I’ll touch And I’m pissed off that coinbase removed the BTC/USDC trading pair because it had low volume Why will I not touch them? That’s a long story but I see history repeating itself - fractional reserve Bitcoin banks paying ponzi interest
        BLKNSLVR 4y ago
        How about Kraken? They've weathered a few winters.
        jcpham2 4y ago
        Kraken I trust but I've never used. For perspective, I've traded roughly a million dollars worth of BTC specifically. Most of that was as the knife was falling after the 2017/2018 ATH. DCA-ing since then, selloff at the top in 2021, pull my limit sell orders, let it crash. Doing it again now, kinda hard not to take advantage of deflationary 4-year super cycles
- FormerBandmate 4y ago
  FTX was actually based out of a headquarters and wasn’t on the run from governments.
  - chrisco255 4y ago
    And all the while was actually committing fraud. Pays to pay to play.
naveen99 4y ago
mtgox was bigger too. There are other reasons for a crypto winter like high interest rates and a newly credible us central bank. Rest of the world is not bigger when it comes to non residential real estate: private equity, venture, tech, finance.
- miohtama 4y ago
  MtGox had over 80% of volume during its peak. However there wasn’t really any competition. Bitstamp and handful of crap exchanges. Coinbase was an OTC frontend.
- funstuff007 4y ago
  speaking of mtgox, where's a good place to sell my MtG cards now?
  - thom 4y ago
    Somewhat ironic that popular MtG podcast Limited Resources is sponsored by FTX (and popular card marketplace Channel Fireball).
  - gpderetta 4y ago
    in Europe, cardmarket.com is very good.
  - everforward 4y ago
    Europe is usually CardMarket. In the US TCGPlayer seems the most popular with CardKingdom behind them. I've used both TCGPlayer and CardKingdom on the buy side without issues, but you can also list cards for sale (no idea what the process is like). If you want to get maximum value in exchange for doing more legwork and probably assuming more risk, Ebay or Facebook groups.
dogman144 4y ago
Correct until the last I think. Every exchange is looking international because they know what you’re saying too. If Binance goes, there’s a mix of enough international toeholds from regulated exchanges and enough defi to keep the markets live.
themagician 4y ago
All exchanges suffer the same fate. There is just no reason for exchanges to be solvent. The industry is unregulated and there is too much money to be made. Binace will go. Coinbase will go. I believe "crypto" will always be around. It's an MLM for the digital age. It will always be nonsense. Bitcoin, however, I do believe is different.
cwkoss 4y ago
Binance does have significantly lower trading fees than coinbase - so while they do have about 8x the trade volume, it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison, because lower fees mean tighter spreads and more money bouncing around within the system per unit of (deposit -> withdrawal in different currency) So, I'm not sure "an order of magnitude larger" is necessarily an accurate description. Wouldn't say it's inaccurate either, but just missing some nuance.
melenaboija 4y ago
> If Binance goes, crypto isn't coming back Interesting statement for a decentralized asset
- mrtksn 4y ago
  What decentralised asset?
  - melenaboija 4y ago
    Sorry, crypto. I don’t know much about the topic and sometimes I get confused with the concepts crypto, currency, non fungible, token and I call it asset asset to generalize. So, what makes a crypto to be a crypto?
    - mrtksn 4y ago
      That's just the label, nothing decentralised is left. See, as it turns out, to trade you need to find people and people are found in central locations. Okay, there are still many exchanges but this is mostly incidental and it makes sense to end up with single exchange eventually.
      - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
        I'm enjoying the irony that practical crypto could not possibly be less like an decentralised peer-to-peer system for exchanging value if it tried to be. As you soon as someone creates an exchange - and especially as soon as they start packaging funds into absolutely any kind of financial instrument/service - they've effectively reinvented deregulated banking with no deposit protection and extra risk.
        ausudhz 4y ago
        and additionally who run these exchange has no economical background whatsoever. Like an ignorant trying to reinvent the wheel into a squared one and poaching it as a new invention. But is "decentralized"...
bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
If Binance goes, cryptocurrency is certainly coming back. Also, cryptography isn’t going anywhere.
- ausudhz 4y ago
  cryptography was not invented for cryptocurrency, I don't understand why it should go anywhere lol It has many applications far beyond cryptos lol
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
    I was lamenting that crypto means cryptocurrency instead of cryptography now.

jjtheblunt 4y ago

We could ask how long till Binance implodes.

rahen 4y ago

"Not your keys not your coins". I wonder how people can trust those CEX to store their funds. Private keys should be hosted on a cold wallet, period.

_23sd 4y ago

The question in my mind with Binance is how reliant they are on BTC. The non-BNB part of their SAFU (a pair of wallets they call an emergency insurance fund) is roughly half BTC, the other half being BUSD which I wouldn't 100% trust if Binance was in trouble. Could they survive a FTX-style panic if BTC had dropped below $10k? I hope so, at least.

miohtama 4y ago
BUSD is issued not by Binance, but by Paxos that is regulated in the state of New York under BitLicense. It is one of the toughest licenses to get in the world, so I would be surprised if BUSD somehow collapses.
- polygamous_bat 4y ago
  Ah, if only that were true! Your claim smelled funny, so I looked it up: https://paxos.com/2022/04/07/busd-issued-by-paxos-on-ethereum-vs-busd-on-the-bnb-smart-chain/ https://paxos.com/2022/04/07/busd-issued-by-paxos-on-ethereu... Tl;Dr: Paxos issues something called BUSD on Ethereum, which is regulated. Binance issues something that's kinda sorta related but not really, that's fully unregulated, only usable in their private chain, ALSO called BUSD, that is just monopoly money. They happen to have the same name, but hey, you fell for it! Related quote from the link: "Paxos issues two US dollar-backed stablecoins – Pax Dollar (USDP) and Binance USD (BUSD) – that are overseen by the NYDFS. These two tokens are very similar in design and reserve operations because they are regulated. Paxos and NYDFS agreed to the terms of the token in advance of issuing – this includes the stipulation that USDP and BUSD only be issued by Paxos on the ethereum blockchain at this time. Our marketing partner for BUSD – Binance – issues a token on its BNB smart chain called Binance-Peg BUSD ... Note that Binance-Peg BUSD is strictly a Binance product; it is not issued by Paxos nor regulated by the NYDFS."
  - miohtama 4y ago
    Thank you for your smell comment. I am a nerd with bad hygiene, but people do not bring it up that often. Binance pegged USD is not printed out of thin air. It is a bridged token from Ethereum to other blockchains. Because how smart contracts work, Binance cannot manipulate Binance pegged USD supply unless they seriously break BNB Chain. You can verify the reserves and bridges here: https://www.binance.com/en/assets-proof https://www.binance.com/en/assets-proof If you do not believe this web page, you can also run your own node and ask it directly using JSON-RPC API. Thus any Binance pegged USD (and other bridged tokens) are 1:1 backed by matching token on Ethereum chain. Binance pegged USD is not different from any other bridged token on other bridges and chains and there is no reason to suspect any foul play here. Because it is transparent and on-chain there cannot be fraud. There could be, however, technical issues and hacks with the bridges. The reason why Paxos do not directly issue tokens on other chains is that they 1) likely do not have infrastructure for it yet 2) they are limited by commercial agreements or agreements with a regulator.

melony 4y ago

They are banned mainly because they like to skirt KYC and similar regulations. It doesn't mean their financial engineering is poor. Those two issues are completely orthogonal.

EastSmith 4y ago
Binance KYC's process is a joke. I've been using them for years, suddenly they needed more KYC and their automated process failed me more than 4 times in couple of months. Glad they failed me though, life turned out pretty great without me gambling on meme coins.

young_unixer 4y ago

> and the reason is that they are being actively investigated or banned almost everywhere. That's not an indication of anything wrong with Binance. A more plausible explanation is that the laws are too oppressive "almost everywhere".

bamazizi 4y ago

^this ... The whole space seems like a mirage

lizknope 4y ago
It seems like it because it is. No regulations, no protections, only idiots "invest" in this garbage. It's just one scam after another
- lancesells 4y ago
  The only way to make a buck is for someone else to lose a buck. There's nothing else in the exchange here so it's just perverse. But I wouldn't call people idiots that invest but uninformed and/or desperate and/or uncaring. If someone has an extra $1000 in the bank they think what's the worst that can happen? It's a mistake but you can see how these exchanges are worth billions all of a sudden and the dollars being pulled in to make these billionaires have to come from someone else.