11 ms·

There's also Rancher Desktop in the same space, which includes k3s as a local K8s solution. For personal use I found it great and lighter than Docker Desktop.

There's also Rancher Desktop in the same space, which includes k3s as a local K8s solution. For personal use I found it great and lighter than Docker Desktop. At work, unfortunately all options but Docker Desktop have issues with either 1) Our Cisco AnyConnect VPN, or 2) Our authenticated http proxy. Couldn't find anything else providing a container runtime + a local k8s on MacOS that works in this environment. So we just got Docker Desktop licenses.

blibble 4y ago
> For personal use I found it great and lighter than Docker Desktop. I don't know what Docker Desktop is doing but on a top end i9 with 128gb of ram it still takes 60 seconds to start and the UI takes forever to do anything it makes Teams look responsive
- PaulWaldman 4y ago
  Are you on Windows? I believe it is using Hyper-V and running containers in a VM. The loading time is probably how long it takes to start the VM.
  - giobox 4y ago
    "Docker Desktop" uses a VM for container execution on all supported OSes - Windows, macOS and Linux - default installs are not running "docker" natively at your local CLI if you are using "Docker Desktop" to run docker, even on Linux. > https://www.docker.com/blog/the-magic-behind-the-scenes-of-docker-desktop/ https://www.docker.com/blog/the-magic-behind-the-scenes-of-d... > https://docs.docker.com/desktop/install/linux-install/ https://docs.docker.com/desktop/install/linux-install/ > https://docs.docker.com/desktop/faqs/linuxfaqs/#what-is-the-difference-between-docker-desktop-for-linux-and-docker-engine https://docs.docker.com/desktop/faqs/linuxfaqs/#what-is-the-... "Docker Desktop on Linux runs a Virtual Machine (VM) so creates and uses a custom docker context desktop-linux on startup." I had previously assumed it would be native on Linux, but apparently not. To be clear, this only applies when talking about "Docker Desktop" installations - not the same thing as "docker" etc etc. I also think the performance is pretty bad, and I've used it on all three OSes at one time or another. I simply never install "Docker Desktop" on Linux typically anyway - it adds so little value over a basic native local docker install there. The only thing I think "Docker Desktop" is really great at is creating FUD regarding using the alternatives or even plain ole free "docker", but that is probably its primary means of generating revenue for the company - I've seen docker desktop licences get deployed everywhere recently, regardless of the merits. So many users I encounter don't even understand the distinction now between docker/docker-desktop, or that there is one.
    - tyingq 4y ago
      On windows, docker desktop can use Hyper-V, but it also supports WSL2 as a backend.
      - giobox 4y ago
        > also supports WSL2 as a backend. Also known as a VM, but maybe you get better warm up times. My main complaints are with the "docker desktop" app experience - not so much "docker" itself VM or otherwise. It adds so little to docker for the license cost too, at least so far. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/compare-versions https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/compare-versio... You can simply install docker in a VM/WSL2 natively yourself and avoid docker desktop/licensing altogether. "Docker Desktop" is/was really a tool to simplify getting a Linux Kernel (the critical dependency for cross-platform container dev) on non-Linux platforms IMO, which seems wild to pay for to me in its current state and when Windows has a great built in VM via WSL2 anyway. That it even exists on Linux now (recent addition) is kinda amusing - on MacOS and Windows there is at least some argument to be made it simplifies getting the kernel...
      - bakugo 4y ago
        The WSL2 backend is pretty broken from my experience, it will often lock up using 100% CPU after I put my laptop into sleep/hibernation, and the only reliable way to bring it back seems to be killing the VM in task manager and restarting. Dunno if this is Windows' fault or Docker's though.
        dboreham 4y ago
        Not broken for me fwiw on four different machines, one is ARM.
        pablomalo 4y ago
        Same here. I do not have admin rights on the machine so, unless I'm mistaken, I don't have any other option but to reboot.
      - lsaferite 4y ago
- mfer 4y ago
  I user Rancher Desktop on an i9 with 32gb of RAM. Starts in less than a minute. I also have Teams and slack. Sometimes I have over 200 browser tabs open (yes, I have a problem). The UI is responsive pretty quickly. A lot of delays has to do with starting VMs. You need this for Linux on Mac/Windows. Disclaimer: I started Rancher Desktop. I might be biased.
  - anderspitman 4y ago
    Starting a WHPX-accelerated VM with QEMU on Windows takes less than 15 seconds with a minimal init. Is Hyper-V really that much slower?
    - jve 4y ago
      Don't think so. Starting WSL2 VM takes few seconds.
  - blibble 4y ago
    raw "wsl --shutdown" followed by "wsl" takes maybe a second tops
  - fuckstick 4y ago
    > I user Rancher Desktop on an i9 with 32gb of RAM. Starts in less than a minute. This is considered good?
    - jbverschoor 4y ago
      Reminds me of people working on Java apps, who had to wait 2-3 minutes for every freaking change
  - alex3305 4y ago
    Last week I switched from Rancher Desktop back to Docker Desktop because I couldn't get VSCode Dev Containers to work properly. I was stumped because it should work out of the box. However it didn't work on a fresh install of Docker Desktop either. Apparently when Rancher Desktop was first released I've installed it and setup a Docker alias in my ~/.zshrc: alias docker=nerdctl After removing that alias everything worked first try with Docker Desktop. However after starting up a couple of Dev containers and some debugger my machine crawled to a halt and was memory swapping like there was no tomorrow. I found that this behavior could be normal for Docker Desktop. So I think I'm going to switch back to Rancher Desktop (or perhaps Podman Desktop) sooner than later.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  Yup. I have a Mac Pro 2019, 12 core Xeon, 192GB, and the Desktop app and VM location reside on a RAID0 M.2 array that can throughput 6GB/s. Still a minute+.
alphalima 4y ago
I had similar issues with a different VPN/Proxy at an earlier role. I solved with https://github.com/sakai135/wsl-vpnkit https://github.com/sakai135/wsl-vpnkit and trusting the root certificate of the proxy on the rancher desktop WSL2 vm (Assuming you're on Windows as I was). Docker desktop pays for itself by solving these issues though IMO (I wasn't able to get a licence at the old role however)
gbraad 4y ago
You can use wsl-gvproxy(*), which uses our CRC usermode network stack to allow use with VPN. We are working on making this an option for podman machine. Alternatively, or to test, you can use CRC from our crc-org project and run the podman preset. This uses a dedicated VM using native hypervisors and the gvproxy setup. I am the teamlead of CRC and work on the Windows enablement of podman machine, with the podman desktop team. Gladly take questions here or by email. (*) also known as wsl-vpnkit
- magicpointer 4y ago
  Unfortunately I'm on MacOS and not Windows. But I'll pass this info to my Windows-using colleagues, thanks!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
I suppose Docker Compose won‘t work with those alternatives?
- mfer 4y ago
  For Rancher Desktop, Docker Compose works with Rancher Desktop when you choose dockerd (moby). If you choose to use straight containerd (with nerdctl as a CLI) than compose isn't going to work.
  - matamagu 4y ago
    If you choose to use straight containerd then you can use nerdctl compose too.
- sgarland 4y ago
  I ran into this issue[0] when trying to use docker-compose locally, connecting to a Podman VM. [0]: https://github.com/docker/compose/issues/9448 https://github.com/docker/compose/issues/9448
- Macha 4y ago
  Docker Compose works fine with Rancher Desktop. You can use it with Podman on Linux too, you just need to enable the socket since normally Podman does without - I'd imagine there's some way to enable this on Podman desktop too.
- depereo 4y ago
  Compose works (with caveats, sometimes significant ones) with podman. Rancher desktop works seamlessly with docker-compose. No issues at all.
- jchw 4y ago
  Podman works with Docker Compose enough to run stuff I've had to deal with at work and home. I prefer to use the podman-compose script usually, since it does offer some small advantages when using Podman. That said, even with the podman-compose script, I ran into an issue where some syntax somewhere needed to be adjusted for Podman; I can't remember exactly what and I don't have access to the repository to check, but it was a security-related flag, and it was fixed in master at some point, I believe. Getting Podman to run CUDA/Nvidia workloads was a bit more challenging, but that can also be done.

blibble 4y ago

> For personal use I found it great and lighter than Docker Desktop. I don't know what Docker Desktop is doing but on a top end i9 with 128gb of ram it still takes 60 seconds to start and the UI takes forever to do anything it makes Teams look responsive

PaulWaldman 4y ago
Are you on Windows? I believe it is using Hyper-V and running containers in a VM. The loading time is probably how long it takes to start the VM.
- giobox 4y ago
  "Docker Desktop" uses a VM for container execution on all supported OSes - Windows, macOS and Linux - default installs are not running "docker" natively at your local CLI if you are using "Docker Desktop" to run docker, even on Linux. > https://www.docker.com/blog/the-magic-behind-the-scenes-of-docker-desktop/ https://www.docker.com/blog/the-magic-behind-the-scenes-of-d... > https://docs.docker.com/desktop/install/linux-install/ https://docs.docker.com/desktop/install/linux-install/ > https://docs.docker.com/desktop/faqs/linuxfaqs/#what-is-the-difference-between-docker-desktop-for-linux-and-docker-engine https://docs.docker.com/desktop/faqs/linuxfaqs/#what-is-the-... "Docker Desktop on Linux runs a Virtual Machine (VM) so creates and uses a custom docker context desktop-linux on startup." I had previously assumed it would be native on Linux, but apparently not. To be clear, this only applies when talking about "Docker Desktop" installations - not the same thing as "docker" etc etc. I also think the performance is pretty bad, and I've used it on all three OSes at one time or another. I simply never install "Docker Desktop" on Linux typically anyway - it adds so little value over a basic native local docker install there. The only thing I think "Docker Desktop" is really great at is creating FUD regarding using the alternatives or even plain ole free "docker", but that is probably its primary means of generating revenue for the company - I've seen docker desktop licences get deployed everywhere recently, regardless of the merits. So many users I encounter don't even understand the distinction now between docker/docker-desktop, or that there is one.
  - tyingq 4y ago
    On windows, docker desktop can use Hyper-V, but it also supports WSL2 as a backend.
    - giobox 4y ago
      > also supports WSL2 as a backend. Also known as a VM, but maybe you get better warm up times. My main complaints are with the "docker desktop" app experience - not so much "docker" itself VM or otherwise. It adds so little to docker for the license cost too, at least so far. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/compare-versions https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/compare-versio... You can simply install docker in a VM/WSL2 natively yourself and avoid docker desktop/licensing altogether. "Docker Desktop" is/was really a tool to simplify getting a Linux Kernel (the critical dependency for cross-platform container dev) on non-Linux platforms IMO, which seems wild to pay for to me in its current state and when Windows has a great built in VM via WSL2 anyway. That it even exists on Linux now (recent addition) is kinda amusing - on MacOS and Windows there is at least some argument to be made it simplifies getting the kernel...
    - bakugo 4y ago
      The WSL2 backend is pretty broken from my experience, it will often lock up using 100% CPU after I put my laptop into sleep/hibernation, and the only reliable way to bring it back seems to be killing the VM in task manager and restarting. Dunno if this is Windows' fault or Docker's though.
      - dboreham 4y ago
        Not broken for me fwiw on four different machines, one is ARM.
      - pablomalo 4y ago
        Same here. I do not have admin rights on the machine so, unless I'm mistaken, I don't have any other option but to reboot.
    - lsaferite 4y ago
mfer 4y ago
I user Rancher Desktop on an i9 with 32gb of RAM. Starts in less than a minute. I also have Teams and slack. Sometimes I have over 200 browser tabs open (yes, I have a problem). The UI is responsive pretty quickly. A lot of delays has to do with starting VMs. You need this for Linux on Mac/Windows. Disclaimer: I started Rancher Desktop. I might be biased.
- anderspitman 4y ago
  Starting a WHPX-accelerated VM with QEMU on Windows takes less than 15 seconds with a minimal init. Is Hyper-V really that much slower?
  - jve 4y ago
    Don't think so. Starting WSL2 VM takes few seconds.
- blibble 4y ago
  raw "wsl --shutdown" followed by "wsl" takes maybe a second tops
- fuckstick 4y ago
  > I user Rancher Desktop on an i9 with 32gb of RAM. Starts in less than a minute. This is considered good?
  - jbverschoor 4y ago
    Reminds me of people working on Java apps, who had to wait 2-3 minutes for every freaking change
- alex3305 4y ago
  Last week I switched from Rancher Desktop back to Docker Desktop because I couldn't get VSCode Dev Containers to work properly. I was stumped because it should work out of the box. However it didn't work on a fresh install of Docker Desktop either. Apparently when Rancher Desktop was first released I've installed it and setup a Docker alias in my ~/.zshrc: alias docker=nerdctl After removing that alias everything worked first try with Docker Desktop. However after starting up a couple of Dev containers and some debugger my machine crawled to a halt and was memory swapping like there was no tomorrow. I found that this behavior could be normal for Docker Desktop. So I think I'm going to switch back to Rancher Desktop (or perhaps Podman Desktop) sooner than later.
FireBeyond 4y ago
Yup. I have a Mac Pro 2019, 12 core Xeon, 192GB, and the Desktop app and VM location reside on a RAID0 M.2 array that can throughput 6GB/s. Still a minute+.

alphalima 4y ago

I had similar issues with a different VPN/Proxy at an earlier role. I solved with https://github.com/sakai135/wsl-vpnkit https://github.com/sakai135/wsl-vpnkit and trusting the root certificate of the proxy on the rancher desktop WSL2 vm (Assuming you're on Windows as I was). Docker desktop pays for itself by solving these issues though IMO (I wasn't able to get a licence at the old role however)

gbraad 4y ago

You can use wsl-gvproxy(*), which uses our CRC usermode network stack to allow use with VPN. We are working on making this an option for podman machine. Alternatively, or to test, you can use CRC from our crc-org project and run the podman preset. This uses a dedicated VM using native hypervisors and the gvproxy setup. I am the teamlead of CRC and work on the Windows enablement of podman machine, with the podman desktop team. Gladly take questions here or by email. (*) also known as wsl-vpnkit

magicpointer 4y ago
Unfortunately I'm on MacOS and not Windows. But I'll pass this info to my Windows-using colleagues, thanks!

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

MrBuddyCasino 4y ago

I suppose Docker Compose won‘t work with those alternatives?

mfer 4y ago
For Rancher Desktop, Docker Compose works with Rancher Desktop when you choose dockerd (moby). If you choose to use straight containerd (with nerdctl as a CLI) than compose isn't going to work.
- matamagu 4y ago
  If you choose to use straight containerd then you can use nerdctl compose too.
sgarland 4y ago
I ran into this issue[0] when trying to use docker-compose locally, connecting to a Podman VM. [0]: https://github.com/docker/compose/issues/9448 https://github.com/docker/compose/issues/9448
Macha 4y ago
Docker Compose works fine with Rancher Desktop. You can use it with Podman on Linux too, you just need to enable the socket since normally Podman does without - I'd imagine there's some way to enable this on Podman desktop too.
depereo 4y ago
Compose works (with caveats, sometimes significant ones) with podman. Rancher desktop works seamlessly with docker-compose. No issues at all.
jchw 4y ago
Podman works with Docker Compose enough to run stuff I've had to deal with at work and home. I prefer to use the podman-compose script usually, since it does offer some small advantages when using Podman. That said, even with the podman-compose script, I ran into an issue where some syntax somewhere needed to be adjusted for Podman; I can't remember exactly what and I don't have access to the repository to check, but it was a security-related flag, and it was fixed in master at some point, I believe. Getting Podman to run CUDA/Nvidia workloads was a bit more challenging, but that can also be done.