4 ms·

This Mick Gordon guy has to be the most patient, understanding and abuse-tolerant person on the planet. Even after getting screwed over 30 times in a row he sti

by fleddr 4y ago

This Mick Gordon guy has to be the most patient, understanding and abuse-tolerant person on the planet. Even after getting screwed over 30 times in a row he still was hopeful for a reasonable ending. I express that as a compliment, even if in the real world it works against you. It's not the main topic, but I like to call out attention to this: "incidences of online abuse escalated at an alarming rate as Marty’s Reddit post led to frustration over my alleged professional failure, and toxic gamers grew openly aggressive. They shared my personal details via message boards, including Reddit, which meant that abusers could now reach me in more ways than ever. They email-bombed my inboxes, crashing the server and clogging my messaging services, crippling my ability to communicate. They harassed my other clients with attempts to get me fired from their projects. They called my phone numbers around the clock, screaming messages full of abuse. I began receiving specific expressions of violence, the content so vivid it made me sick. The torrent of abuse telling me how to kill myself, how I’d be mutilated, how they would circulate photos of my body to traumatise my family, how my family would be murdered, how they’d hurt my animals, how they’d shoot up any event I attended, how I’d be raped to death, really started to wear me down in ways I couldn’t previously imagine." I'm strongly against authoritarian overreach and used to consider trolling a "fact of life", nothing requiring intervention. I no longer believe that. We're talking about a disappointing audio track for a stupid game yet the man and his family have to fear for their lives. And surely Mr Manager Marty looks at it with approval. A line has to be drawn in the sand. There must be a cost to such threats. A massive fine or some short prison time. Further, those enabling and launching the mob, even if unknowingly, need to carry responsibility too. This isn't just defamation, it spills over into real world danger.

fknorangesite 4y ago
> used to consider trolling a "fact of life", nothing requiring intervention. I no longer believe that. ... the man and his family have to fear for their lives. I'm wondering how you could be on the internet in a post-gamergate world and still be surprised that shit like this really does happen. It's incredibly common - why do you think those calls for stricter moderation started in the first place?
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  Yeah, but this is even lower; it's literally just music! Even GG, as pathetic as it was, could be explained through a culture war angle. Also, I'd disagree with stricter moderation helping, and actually, we saw the opposite here. He got moderated out of the audience, with no recourse a part from screaming into the void (until he wrote this). Without this massive documentation effort, he otherwise would've been totally recourseless. If anything, this highlights how problematic moderation can be especially on reddit. (I'm not arguing that moderation is bad in general, just that this story actually shows that there has to be a balance. A way to watch the watchmen I guess)
tibbon 4y ago
I also really wonder WTF is wrong with people. Even children should know to not harass someone for any reason, let alone that perhaps that person had conflict while working on a game they enjoy. I cannot imagine ever going after someone like that, under any circumstance.
- pixl97 4y ago
  Some people when given anonymity have no bounds on their behaviors. That's why many systems and programs fail, because we can only imagine how bad we are, and not how insanely awful the worst of us can act.
- rjbwork 4y ago
  I think it's the same phenomenon that causes road rage. Collective pseudo-anonymity (and on the internet, literally pseudonymity) causes people to act in bizarre ways. The other people who are interacting with them via that mediated interface (internet, cars on road, phone, etc.) are at some level dehumanized. Very few people would do the kinds of things they do behind the screen or wheel of a car when sitting face to face with someone IRL.
  - fleddr 4y ago
    True, empathy is a function of distance.
    - djmips 4y ago
      But stating the obvious, not always actual physical distance since working remotely for example I don't feel like empathy is lacking. However it is an interesting component and I'm sure comes into play even with WFH.
      - philwelch 4y ago
        It’s being removed from consequences. WFH you can still be fired, in person you can be punched in the face, but in these other settings there are no immediate consequences.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
> I'm strongly against authoritarian overreach and used to consider trolling a "fact of life", nothing requiring intervention. I no longer believe that. We're talking about a disappointing audio track for a stupid game yet the man and his family have to fear for their lives. This is hardly the first incident like this and not even close to the worst. Remember when Reddit decided they knew who the Boston Marathon bomber was, and got his friends and family harassed so bad that the FBI had to go on TV and give away sensitive case information just so they'd see how wrong they were and knock it off? Or maybe how Near was harassed for being a harmless non-binary furry until they committed suicide? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Mick's been through some shit, but if it took you this long to realize that maybe the "trolls" of today aren't the cuddly affectionate clowns of the previous millennium then you really weren't paying attention.
- fleddr 4y ago
  Well, AnIdiotOnTheNet, perhaps you could be more of a role model yourself by not making baseless assumptions. I've been on the web since 1996 and am well aware of what people can do. Depravity I couldn't even imagine exists. So no, I didn't just learn that people do really bad stuff. The reason I used the term "a fact of life" is because addressing this issue can come at an enormous cost to society. Nobody would want anonymity to be illegal or to have every word expressed monitored by some institute. That's the reason for my hesitation, not because I didn't know about several earlier examples of this type of harassment. I find this specific example of a hate campaign very useful for it is pure. You can't say it was an accident (we had the wrong guy) nor is it clouded by politics: it's fine if it happens to my political opponents or it was in retaliation to them doing the same thing to our side. There's no provocation of any kind either. The above bullshit excuses are often used to be relatively lax about this phenomenon. To look away, and to see them as rare incidents. Whilst there's never an excuse, this one doesn't even have a bullshit excuse either. For me that's a tipping point in believing that legislation is needed.
  - pas 4y ago
    there is a difference between mindlessly trolling a group/community (spamming, DoS and DDoS, flashmobs, 14 year olds standing across some building on the street and looking "menacing", etc) and harassing and threatening one or more specific people (voice messages, stalking, doxing). we already have legislation about the latter, it's simply not enforced. and there are no real conventions about what sites should do when a) one of their members is a target from the outside, b) harassers use their site as an accessory (eg. to communicate, organize, store photos/videos, advertise, recruit) and obviously it's not a clear-cut issue. mandating sites to somehow filter out harmful messages is not trivial. at the same time it'd be great to provide a few independent clearinghouses for these, it'd be great if users could opt-in to have content aimed at them filtered, etc. (for example it'd be very useful for sites to have a setting for users to only allow receiving private messages from users with some minimal reputation, and so on)
valdiorn 4y ago
> We're talking about a disappointing audio track for a stupid game Uh, the Doom eternal soundtrack is widely regarded as one of the absolute best game soundtracks ever created. I've not actually read this whole thing (am about to), neither was I aware of this whole mess, but I'm a massive fan of Mick and the Doom soundtracks. They have hundreds of millions of streams on YouTube in total.
- fleddr 4y ago
  Well, once you finish reading, you'll understand that the outcome of this project was in fact disappointing. Which was the entire reason for the hate campaign.
- sentientslug 4y ago
  What you are quoting was written by the composer of the soundtrack (Mick Gordon)
  - valdiorn 4y ago
    damn, that is so sad - it's objectively an amazing soundtrack. It's really sad that this whole experience has damaged his perception of his incredible work so badly :(
    - mort96 4y ago
      The most popular videos on YouTube aren't the officially released OST, they're remixed/remastered versions fixed up by the community. The official OST isn't terrible by any means, it's full of musically great pieces, but it has glaring objective technical flaws and nonsensical song structures. Perfect for management to think "It's good enough, ship it" while the artist behind it thinks "This is garbage, my reputation is ruined" and the community gets up in arms about its shortcomings. Especially when the community expects something on the level of the DOOM 2016 OST.
    - sentientslug 4y ago
      Sorry - I was actually incorrect. I missed the second quotation mark, that was the opinion of the commenter and not of Mick G. My bad!

by fleddr 4y ago

fknorangesite 4y ago

> used to consider trolling a "fact of life", nothing requiring intervention. I no longer believe that. ... the man and his family have to fear for their lives. I'm wondering how you could be on the internet in a post-gamergate world and still be surprised that shit like this really does happen. It's incredibly common - why do you think those calls for stricter moderation started in the first place?

mardifoufs 4y ago
Yeah, but this is even lower; it's literally just music! Even GG, as pathetic as it was, could be explained through a culture war angle. Also, I'd disagree with stricter moderation helping, and actually, we saw the opposite here. He got moderated out of the audience, with no recourse a part from screaming into the void (until he wrote this). Without this massive documentation effort, he otherwise would've been totally recourseless. If anything, this highlights how problematic moderation can be especially on reddit. (I'm not arguing that moderation is bad in general, just that this story actually shows that there has to be a balance. A way to watch the watchmen I guess)

tibbon 4y ago

I also really wonder WTF is wrong with people. Even children should know to not harass someone for any reason, let alone that perhaps that person had conflict while working on a game they enjoy. I cannot imagine ever going after someone like that, under any circumstance.

pixl97 4y ago
Some people when given anonymity have no bounds on their behaviors. That's why many systems and programs fail, because we can only imagine how bad we are, and not how insanely awful the worst of us can act.
rjbwork 4y ago
I think it's the same phenomenon that causes road rage. Collective pseudo-anonymity (and on the internet, literally pseudonymity) causes people to act in bizarre ways. The other people who are interacting with them via that mediated interface (internet, cars on road, phone, etc.) are at some level dehumanized. Very few people would do the kinds of things they do behind the screen or wheel of a car when sitting face to face with someone IRL.
- fleddr 4y ago
  True, empathy is a function of distance.
  - djmips 4y ago
    But stating the obvious, not always actual physical distance since working remotely for example I don't feel like empathy is lacking. However it is an interesting component and I'm sure comes into play even with WFH.
    - philwelch 4y ago
      It’s being removed from consequences. WFH you can still be fired, in person you can be punched in the face, but in these other settings there are no immediate consequences.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago

> I'm strongly against authoritarian overreach and used to consider trolling a "fact of life", nothing requiring intervention. I no longer believe that. We're talking about a disappointing audio track for a stupid game yet the man and his family have to fear for their lives. This is hardly the first incident like this and not even close to the worst. Remember when Reddit decided they knew who the Boston Marathon bomber was, and got his friends and family harassed so bad that the FBI had to go on TV and give away sensitive case information just so they'd see how wrong they were and knock it off? Or maybe how Near was harassed for being a harmless non-binary furry until they committed suicide? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Mick's been through some shit, but if it took you this long to realize that maybe the "trolls" of today aren't the cuddly affectionate clowns of the previous millennium then you really weren't paying attention.

fleddr 4y ago
Well, AnIdiotOnTheNet, perhaps you could be more of a role model yourself by not making baseless assumptions. I've been on the web since 1996 and am well aware of what people can do. Depravity I couldn't even imagine exists. So no, I didn't just learn that people do really bad stuff. The reason I used the term "a fact of life" is because addressing this issue can come at an enormous cost to society. Nobody would want anonymity to be illegal or to have every word expressed monitored by some institute. That's the reason for my hesitation, not because I didn't know about several earlier examples of this type of harassment. I find this specific example of a hate campaign very useful for it is pure. You can't say it was an accident (we had the wrong guy) nor is it clouded by politics: it's fine if it happens to my political opponents or it was in retaliation to them doing the same thing to our side. There's no provocation of any kind either. The above bullshit excuses are often used to be relatively lax about this phenomenon. To look away, and to see them as rare incidents. Whilst there's never an excuse, this one doesn't even have a bullshit excuse either. For me that's a tipping point in believing that legislation is needed.
- pas 4y ago
  there is a difference between mindlessly trolling a group/community (spamming, DoS and DDoS, flashmobs, 14 year olds standing across some building on the street and looking "menacing", etc) and harassing and threatening one or more specific people (voice messages, stalking, doxing). we already have legislation about the latter, it's simply not enforced. and there are no real conventions about what sites should do when a) one of their members is a target from the outside, b) harassers use their site as an accessory (eg. to communicate, organize, store photos/videos, advertise, recruit) and obviously it's not a clear-cut issue. mandating sites to somehow filter out harmful messages is not trivial. at the same time it'd be great to provide a few independent clearinghouses for these, it'd be great if users could opt-in to have content aimed at them filtered, etc. (for example it'd be very useful for sites to have a setting for users to only allow receiving private messages from users with some minimal reputation, and so on)

valdiorn 4y ago

> We're talking about a disappointing audio track for a stupid game Uh, the Doom eternal soundtrack is widely regarded as one of the absolute best game soundtracks ever created. I've not actually read this whole thing (am about to), neither was I aware of this whole mess, but I'm a massive fan of Mick and the Doom soundtracks. They have hundreds of millions of streams on YouTube in total.

fleddr 4y ago
Well, once you finish reading, you'll understand that the outcome of this project was in fact disappointing. Which was the entire reason for the hate campaign.
sentientslug 4y ago
What you are quoting was written by the composer of the soundtrack (Mick Gordon)
- valdiorn 4y ago
  damn, that is so sad - it's objectively an amazing soundtrack. It's really sad that this whole experience has damaged his perception of his incredible work so badly :(
  - mort96 4y ago
    The most popular videos on YouTube aren't the officially released OST, they're remixed/remastered versions fixed up by the community. The official OST isn't terrible by any means, it's full of musically great pieces, but it has glaring objective technical flaws and nonsensical song structures. Perfect for management to think "It's good enough, ship it" while the artist behind it thinks "This is garbage, my reputation is ruined" and the community gets up in arms about its shortcomings. Especially when the community expects something on the level of the DOOM 2016 OST.
  - sentientslug 4y ago
    Sorry - I was actually incorrect. I missed the second quotation mark, that was the opinion of the commenter and not of Mick G. My bad!