4 ms·

We’ve tried it, it was far worse. There are still people alive who were there, maybe all the younger people advocating socialism should chat with them?

lovich 4y ago
Europe is far worse? The New Deal was far worse? We’ve decided to go down the cyberpunk corporate hellscape path since the 80s and post 2001 it’s just been consistently degrading workers lives. I think most millennials and gen z would trade their financial outlook for their parents so I really can’t accept this “far worse” description
- bradleyjg 4y ago
  None of that was socialism. It’s welfare capitalism which the entire west today has in one variant or another. Saying we should tune up regulations and/or the safety net is an entirely reasonable thing we could have a discussion about. Talking about socialism is ignorant or foolish.
  - lovich 4y ago
    They’re all socialist policies, no country is purely capitalistic or purely socialistic. To be clear when I said “leads people towards socialism” I meant pushes them in a direction that advocates for more socialist policies like increasing the safety net
- snovv_crash 4y ago
  DDR was 'real' socialist.
  - arbitrage 4y ago
    In no way. The DDR was a communist cesspit of a proxy state for the USSR from day one. It was not socialist. It just called itself that.
    - bradleyjg 4y ago
      Communism is a subset of socialism. Welfare capitalism isn’t.
      - lovich 4y ago
        Communism isn’t a subset of socialism unless you’re using the American conservative definition where they all just equate to evil
        bradleyjg 4y ago
        On the contrary that’s what actual communists believed. There’s a Baptists and bootleggers coalition to pervert the meaning of socialism. Right wingers want to call everything to the left of Ronald Reagan socialism so they can paint it all as evil and a subset of people that are fairly bog standard welfare capitalists want to call themselves socialists because they think it sounds edgy and cool. They are both wrong. Socialism involves collectivizing the means of production. Not a wealth tax. Not a greenhouse emissions rule. Not forcing companies to put women on their board. Not repealing at will employment. Collectivizing the means of production. If you want to call for nationalizing Facebook then you are a socialist (and a fool.)
kilna 4y ago
When polled, about 60% of folks who lived and worked as adults in the soviet bloc regret its fall into capitalism.
- yonaguska 4y ago
  Notably missing from the polls, the millions that died in prisons, labor camps, or just starved.
  - jodrellblank 4y ago
    Notably missing from understanding is that advocating for collective ownership of things for the benefit of the masses instead of the 1% is not the same as advocating for gulags and mass graves. It's as ridiculous as advocating for space exploration and people like you retorting "you want Challenger 10, you do, you want schoolteachers dying in agonising explosions". Salvador Allende became President of Chile in 1970, he presided for 3 years before being taken down by a coup supported by the US government. In the time he was in power, he pushed a socialist program for Chile. Let's see some highlights of his "prisons, labor camps and starving", eh? - nationalization of large-scale industries (notably copper mining and banking) - a programme of free milk for children in the schools and in the shanty towns - payment of pensions and grants was resumed - increased construction of residential buildings, averaging 55,000/year - all part-time workers granted rights to social security, and increased payments - proposed electricity price-increase withdrawn - bread prices fixed - 55,000 volunteers sent to the south to teach literacy, and provide medical care - obligatory minimum wage for workers of all ages was established - free milk introduced for expectant and nursing mothers and [young] children - free school-meals established - rent reductions - construction of Santiago subway rescheduled to serve working-class neighbourhoods first. - state-sponsored distribution of free food to neediest citizens. - minimum taxable income-level was raised - middle-class Chileans benefited from elimination of taxes on modest incomes and property. - Exemptions from capital taxes were extended, benefitted 330,000 small proprietors. - According to one estimate, purchasing power went up by 28% between October 1970 and July 1971.[53] - The rate of inflation fell from 36.1% in 1970 to 22.1% in 1971 - Average real wages rose by 22.3% during 1971. - Minimum real wages for blue-collar workers were increased by 56% during the first quarter of 1971 - real minimum wages for white-collar workers were increased by 23% - Although the acceleration of inflation in 1972 and 1973 eroded part of the initial increase in wages, they still rose (on average) in real terms during the 1971–73 period. and, much more; - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende#Presidency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende#Presidency By contrast, the UK today has 27% of children living in poverty[1], and the UK government has voted against free school meals for children, and just tried to push through a tax cut for the rich, and electricity prices have gone up while energy companies are posting record profits, housing construction is down and prices are up so normal citizens are being priced out of the housing market. [1] https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/child-poverty-facts-and-figures https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/child-poverty-facts-and-fi...

lovich 4y ago

Europe is far worse? The New Deal was far worse? We’ve decided to go down the cyberpunk corporate hellscape path since the 80s and post 2001 it’s just been consistently degrading workers lives. I think most millennials and gen z would trade their financial outlook for their parents so I really can’t accept this “far worse” description

bradleyjg 4y ago
None of that was socialism. It’s welfare capitalism which the entire west today has in one variant or another. Saying we should tune up regulations and/or the safety net is an entirely reasonable thing we could have a discussion about. Talking about socialism is ignorant or foolish.
- lovich 4y ago
  They’re all socialist policies, no country is purely capitalistic or purely socialistic. To be clear when I said “leads people towards socialism” I meant pushes them in a direction that advocates for more socialist policies like increasing the safety net
snovv_crash 4y ago
DDR was 'real' socialist.
- arbitrage 4y ago
  In no way. The DDR was a communist cesspit of a proxy state for the USSR from day one. It was not socialist. It just called itself that.
  - bradleyjg 4y ago
    Communism is a subset of socialism. Welfare capitalism isn’t.
    - lovich 4y ago
      Communism isn’t a subset of socialism unless you’re using the American conservative definition where they all just equate to evil
      - bradleyjg 4y ago
        On the contrary that’s what actual communists believed. There’s a Baptists and bootleggers coalition to pervert the meaning of socialism. Right wingers want to call everything to the left of Ronald Reagan socialism so they can paint it all as evil and a subset of people that are fairly bog standard welfare capitalists want to call themselves socialists because they think it sounds edgy and cool. They are both wrong. Socialism involves collectivizing the means of production. Not a wealth tax. Not a greenhouse emissions rule. Not forcing companies to put women on their board. Not repealing at will employment. Collectivizing the means of production. If you want to call for nationalizing Facebook then you are a socialist (and a fool.)

kilna 4y ago

When polled, about 60% of folks who lived and worked as adults in the soviet bloc regret its fall into capitalism.

yonaguska 4y ago
Notably missing from the polls, the millions that died in prisons, labor camps, or just starved.
- jodrellblank 4y ago
  Notably missing from understanding is that advocating for collective ownership of things for the benefit of the masses instead of the 1% is not the same as advocating for gulags and mass graves. It's as ridiculous as advocating for space exploration and people like you retorting "you want Challenger 10, you do, you want schoolteachers dying in agonising explosions". Salvador Allende became President of Chile in 1970, he presided for 3 years before being taken down by a coup supported by the US government. In the time he was in power, he pushed a socialist program for Chile. Let's see some highlights of his "prisons, labor camps and starving", eh? - nationalization of large-scale industries (notably copper mining and banking) - a programme of free milk for children in the schools and in the shanty towns - payment of pensions and grants was resumed - increased construction of residential buildings, averaging 55,000/year - all part-time workers granted rights to social security, and increased payments - proposed electricity price-increase withdrawn - bread prices fixed - 55,000 volunteers sent to the south to teach literacy, and provide medical care - obligatory minimum wage for workers of all ages was established - free milk introduced for expectant and nursing mothers and [young] children - free school-meals established - rent reductions - construction of Santiago subway rescheduled to serve working-class neighbourhoods first. - state-sponsored distribution of free food to neediest citizens. - minimum taxable income-level was raised - middle-class Chileans benefited from elimination of taxes on modest incomes and property. - Exemptions from capital taxes were extended, benefitted 330,000 small proprietors. - According to one estimate, purchasing power went up by 28% between October 1970 and July 1971.[53] - The rate of inflation fell from 36.1% in 1970 to 22.1% in 1971 - Average real wages rose by 22.3% during 1971. - Minimum real wages for blue-collar workers were increased by 56% during the first quarter of 1971 - real minimum wages for white-collar workers were increased by 23% - Although the acceleration of inflation in 1972 and 1973 eroded part of the initial increase in wages, they still rose (on average) in real terms during the 1971–73 period. and, much more; - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende#Presidency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende#Presidency By contrast, the UK today has 27% of children living in poverty[1], and the UK government has voted against free school meals for children, and just tried to push through a tax cut for the rich, and electricity prices have gone up while energy companies are posting record profits, housing construction is down and prices are up so normal citizens are being priced out of the housing market. [1] https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/child-poverty-facts-and-figures https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/child-poverty-facts-and-fi...