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How does HN intend to control the population with small government that respects a free market and civil liberties?

by klyrs 4y ago

rocknor 4y ago
If by "control" you meant "limit", then there's no problem at all. With free market and civil liberties birth rates fall below replacement, causing stagnation and eventually depopulation.
- klyrs 4y ago
  Okay, sounds great in theory! Do any major world governments fit that description? And if not, what will it take to get them all on board with your ideals?
  - TechBro8615 4y ago
    I think the idea is to start by destroying the fiat banking system...
    - klyrs 4y ago
      That worked so well for Argentina...
    - gremlinsinc 4y ago
      A better system is do away with income tax, and only have a resource tax including land, i.e. land value tax + sales tax + resources extracted from the earth tax. This tax should be high enough to guarantee healthcare, education, food, housing, water to every citizen. A bigger safety net will get more people into college or careers so they'll be too busy to have kids for awhile, and will start a family in their 30s and then maybe only have two kids, if people are slaves to wage then they almost have to get married early to even afford a place to live and that often leads to children not long after. A comfortable and happy society is a well balanced society and will have more natural population i.e. something close to repopulation quotient. I don't have stats on this but maybe compare countries like the USA with Finland, and Denmark which often rank top 10 on 'happy countries' lists.
  - rocknor 4y ago
    You don't need to have a high HDI society with free market principles and individual civil liberties. The requirements for limiting population are even lower. You just need to eradicate extreme poverty and provide decent healthcare and education. Most countries in the world are already on the path to meet these requirements (including major ones). Birth rates are in free fall across the world [1]. There's no one to get on board with "my ideals". [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsBT5EQt348 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsBT5EQt348
gremlinsinc 4y ago
Libertarianism only works, IF citizens trump free market concerns, and only if civil liberties include a RIGHT to healthcare, housing, food, clean water. If all those things exist, then you can work on making it so there's still strong government, but the city has checks and balances that on some issues makes it more powerful to enact laws than the state, and the state, is the same to the federal. States would be more like EU members, Fed would be like NATO and IMF - i.e. protection, foreign affairs, and military protection should be it's major concern, and policing that every state has a way to guarantee the rights previously mentioned. For this to work, I think we also need to stop giving subsidies to corps, instead give them to work-owned co-ops and unions of co-ops that give back to customers/employees and help pay for the healthcare and housing (or UBi benefits), or we lean on the idea that land is a public resource and apply a land value tax, so mostly the rich and corporations pay for the needs of the rest of us by the value they get out of the land. As for controlling population, I don't think we should but we should figure out a better system for managing populations, pollution, waste, and possibly settlements in space if feasible (if we can get gravity to work for bone/muscle issues). A solar punk future looks way more pleasing though than a cyberpunk one. If you can merge left-liberarianism, socialism, capitalism (via co-ops and still a free market just with more worker-ownership similar maybe to how everyone used to have pensions and stick with a company a lot longer), and georgism with universal basic income/healthcare, then we might be able to live in a better world. Every child on earth should have equal access to education and be encouraged to go into the sciences unless they are super artistic or have other talents but we can't go wrong if we have 8 billion and 75% of the adults are scientists or engineers, or stay-at-home parents (as that's important for quality of life too), in the 50s it was normal a family could afford to keep one parent home, not anymore. GBI gives more opportunity to pursue things like doctorates, artistic endeavors, and entrepreneurial activities.

How does HN intend to control the population with small government that respects a free market and civil liberties?

by klyrs 4y ago

How does HN intend to control the population with small government that respects a free market and civil liberties?

If by "control" you meant "limit", then there's no problem at all. With free market and civil liberties birth rates fall below replacement, causing stagnation and eventually depopulation.

klyrs 4y ago
Okay, sounds great in theory! Do any major world governments fit that description? And if not, what will it take to get them all on board with your ideals?
- TechBro8615 4y ago
  I think the idea is to start by destroying the fiat banking system...
  - klyrs 4y ago
    That worked so well for Argentina...
  - gremlinsinc 4y ago
    A better system is do away with income tax, and only have a resource tax including land, i.e. land value tax + sales tax + resources extracted from the earth tax. This tax should be high enough to guarantee healthcare, education, food, housing, water to every citizen. A bigger safety net will get more people into college or careers so they'll be too busy to have kids for awhile, and will start a family in their 30s and then maybe only have two kids, if people are slaves to wage then they almost have to get married early to even afford a place to live and that often leads to children not long after. A comfortable and happy society is a well balanced society and will have more natural population i.e. something close to repopulation quotient. I don't have stats on this but maybe compare countries like the USA with Finland, and Denmark which often rank top 10 on 'happy countries' lists.
- rocknor 4y ago
  You don't need to have a high HDI society with free market principles and individual civil liberties. The requirements for limiting population are even lower. You just need to eradicate extreme poverty and provide decent healthcare and education. Most countries in the world are already on the path to meet these requirements (including major ones). Birth rates are in free fall across the world [1]. There's no one to get on board with "my ideals". [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsBT5EQt348 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsBT5EQt348

gremlinsinc 4y ago

Libertarianism only works, IF citizens trump free market concerns, and only if civil liberties include a RIGHT to healthcare, housing, food, clean water. If all those things exist, then you can work on making it so there's still strong government, but the city has checks and balances that on some issues makes it more powerful to enact laws than the state, and the state, is the same to the federal. States would be more like EU members, Fed would be like NATO and IMF - i.e. protection, foreign affairs, and military protection should be it's major concern, and policing that every state has a way to guarantee the rights previously mentioned. For this to work, I think we also need to stop giving subsidies to corps, instead give them to work-owned co-ops and unions of co-ops that give back to customers/employees and help pay for the healthcare and housing (or UBi benefits), or we lean on the idea that land is a public resource and apply a land value tax, so mostly the rich and corporations pay for the needs of the rest of us by the value they get out of the land. As for controlling population, I don't think we should but we should figure out a better system for managing populations, pollution, waste, and possibly settlements in space if feasible (if we can get gravity to work for bone/muscle issues). A solar punk future looks way more pleasing though than a cyberpunk one. If you can merge left-liberarianism, socialism, capitalism (via co-ops and still a free market just with more worker-ownership similar maybe to how everyone used to have pensions and stick with a company a lot longer), and georgism with universal basic income/healthcare, then we might be able to live in a better world. Every child on earth should have equal access to education and be encouraged to go into the sciences unless they are super artistic or have other talents but we can't go wrong if we have 8 billion and 75% of the adults are scientists or engineers, or stay-at-home parents (as that's important for quality of life too), in the 50s it was normal a family could afford to keep one parent home, not anymore. GBI gives more opportunity to pursue things like doctorates, artistic endeavors, and entrepreneurial activities.