5 ms·

I'd be nervous about asking this unless I'm 100% committed to leaving the company, even if they say "no". Otherwise, you ask, they say "no", but now you've sign

by alecbz 4y ago

I'd be nervous about asking this unless I'm 100% committed to leaving the company, even if they say "no". Otherwise, you ask, they say "no", but now you've signaled that you're not especially invested in staying at the company, which feels like a negative thing to signal if you're interested in staying. (edit: The idea being that you might get fired "normally" as a result, and not get generous severance.)

joenot443 4y ago
You don't need to ask your manager, why not go to HR and stress that this is a sensitive topic you don't want making back to your team? No guarantee they'll honor your privacy, but I'd say it's worth a shot.
- paledot 4y ago
  HR. Is. Not. Your. Friend.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    This is sage advice here. Never fall into the trap that HR is your advocate, despite what they tell you.
  - satysin 4y ago
    This 100%. HR is there to protect the company. Sometimes that aligns with protecting the employee but when shit hits the fan ask yourself does HR work for you or for the company? I know I sound a bit 'down' saying that but it is an unfortunate reality that companies are not very loyal to their employees when times get tough.
- modriano 4y ago
  In my experience, HR may act kind, but they are 100% aligned with the company and not you. Giving them a signal that you're open to leaving at a time when they're trying to reduce the cost of resources that are human is a terrible idea if you aren't looking to leave. Find a trusted friend in the company who is a survivor and ask them. Survivors have strong information networks for office politics and know such info.
- marcus0x62 4y ago
  That would almost certainly make it back to the person’s direct manager or 2nd-level manager (director, VP, whatever.)
  - underwater 4y ago
    I've never had HR share that kind of information back to me. And I would consider it highly unethical if they tried.
- eschneider 4y ago
  You do that and there will be an email describing the conversation in your boss' inbox before you get back to your desk.
User23 4y ago
Don’t volunteer to quit if you’re not willing to lose your job is sound advice, even if it’s a bit on the obvious side. Even in an economic downturn an engineer with Meta on their résumé is going to be well positioned to find employment inside of the three months or more pay and six month insurance runway this deal provides.
satysin 4y ago
So don't ask if you want to stay. Having said that, if you're going to be worried about possibly/probably losing your job 6 months down the road what does it really matter if you have signalled you're not very invested in staying? The company has signalled they're not very invested either is how I look at it. >(edit: The idea being that you might get fired "normally" as a result, and not get generous severance.) Of course I am saying this as someone in Europe where firing someone "normally" is a lot more complicated and time consuming and comes with a whole list of other issues a company needs to make sure they manage properly. They can't just turn round and fire you with no pay because you "showed you were not very invested in the company as you asked if you could be let go when we were letting go of several thousand people". That is a 100% guaranteed legal hell hole no company likes to be in by choice. In America perhaps that is something you genuinely need to worry about I don't know.
- alecbz 4y ago
  You're definitely not going to get fired for that on its own. Maybe I'm over-estimating how much this ends up mattering. But I think it can matter in other small ways too that can negatively effect your career growth.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    Once the redundancies have started, the clock is running: you no longer have career growth at that company. You need to start planning your next career move elsewhere.
    - alecbz 4y ago
      I don't think this is categorically true... you think _all_ the companies that have recently announced layoffs are basically sinking ships?
      - pjc50 4y ago
        But it does mean your options for promotion and salary increase are clearly limited. And in tech there's strong evidence that more career development happens when you move companies than within a company. You may find there's nowhere better to go, but switching to "looking externally" rather than "looking internally" for new jobs is definitely a good idea.
NickRandom 4y ago
This nervousness is what companies rely on to keep the ship steady during massive lay-offs. In other words that same company that in its heyday relied on the person pulling an all-nighter 'for the good of the company' yet failed to ever offer a reciprocal 'sure, take all the paid time off you need buddy' in return gets what it earned. Although you may hear the 'rats from a sinking ship' and 'you're deserting the company and leaving your colleagues to pick up the slack' shrieked from on down high by management - Fuck 'em. They didn't actually give a shit about you on the way up and they don't give a shit about you on the way down. Jump fast, jump early, beat the pack
- alecbz 4y ago
  I don't at all mean that I feel guilty about abandoning the company or anything like that, I'm saying this 100% from a place of selfishness. Wherever I am, I want my manager to think I'm engaged, I want to seem like a team-player. I worry that otherwise, I won't do as well at perf, I won't get put on interesting/meaningful work, I'll be relegated to the side and not feel as integrated into the team. It's possible some of these are unfounded/exaggerated fears, though? If you're 100% set on leaving with or without severance, for sure ask. But if you think you might prefer to stay if severance isn't an option, asking feels risky.
  - neltnerb 4y ago
    I think what you are describing is both a reasonable worry and also exactly the kind of ambiguity the company encourages. You have no leverage if you're unwilling to leave, and it's foolish to initiate a discussion like that from a position of dependency. I'm not suggesting issuing ultimatums, of course, I'm just suggesting that you mentally prepare for needing to quit first, otherwise it takes a real pro to have that conversation. I know I'm not good enough to do it unless I talk about things like that with my manager regularly already. I do wonder if these are questions you can ask confidentially in a different way. Like I dunno how big your place is but you might find this information easily in a meeting with HR, but HR is there to help the company (not you) so it depends on their priorities a lot. It's a very reasonable thing to wonder about when tens of thousands of people just got laid off from similar positions... I'd think a reasonable manager or HR person would understand that. But I certainly can't argue that managers and HR people are all reasonable!

by alecbz 4y ago

joenot443 4y ago

You don't need to ask your manager, why not go to HR and stress that this is a sensitive topic you don't want making back to your team? No guarantee they'll honor your privacy, but I'd say it's worth a shot.

paledot 4y ago
HR. Is. Not. Your. Friend.
- kcplate 4y ago
  This is sage advice here. Never fall into the trap that HR is your advocate, despite what they tell you.
- satysin 4y ago
  This 100%. HR is there to protect the company. Sometimes that aligns with protecting the employee but when shit hits the fan ask yourself does HR work for you or for the company? I know I sound a bit 'down' saying that but it is an unfortunate reality that companies are not very loyal to their employees when times get tough.
modriano 4y ago
In my experience, HR may act kind, but they are 100% aligned with the company and not you. Giving them a signal that you're open to leaving at a time when they're trying to reduce the cost of resources that are human is a terrible idea if you aren't looking to leave. Find a trusted friend in the company who is a survivor and ask them. Survivors have strong information networks for office politics and know such info.
marcus0x62 4y ago
That would almost certainly make it back to the person’s direct manager or 2nd-level manager (director, VP, whatever.)
- underwater 4y ago
  I've never had HR share that kind of information back to me. And I would consider it highly unethical if they tried.
eschneider 4y ago
You do that and there will be an email describing the conversation in your boss' inbox before you get back to your desk.

User23 4y ago

Don’t volunteer to quit if you’re not willing to lose your job is sound advice, even if it’s a bit on the obvious side. Even in an economic downturn an engineer with Meta on their résumé is going to be well positioned to find employment inside of the three months or more pay and six month insurance runway this deal provides.

satysin 4y ago

So don't ask if you want to stay. Having said that, if you're going to be worried about possibly/probably losing your job 6 months down the road what does it really matter if you have signalled you're not very invested in staying? The company has signalled they're not very invested either is how I look at it. >(edit: The idea being that you might get fired "normally" as a result, and not get generous severance.) Of course I am saying this as someone in Europe where firing someone "normally" is a lot more complicated and time consuming and comes with a whole list of other issues a company needs to make sure they manage properly. They can't just turn round and fire you with no pay because you "showed you were not very invested in the company as you asked if you could be let go when we were letting go of several thousand people". That is a 100% guaranteed legal hell hole no company likes to be in by choice. In America perhaps that is something you genuinely need to worry about I don't know.

alecbz 4y ago
You're definitely not going to get fired for that on its own. Maybe I'm over-estimating how much this ends up mattering. But I think it can matter in other small ways too that can negatively effect your career growth.
- pjc50 4y ago
  Once the redundancies have started, the clock is running: you no longer have career growth at that company. You need to start planning your next career move elsewhere.
  - alecbz 4y ago
    I don't think this is categorically true... you think _all_ the companies that have recently announced layoffs are basically sinking ships?
    - pjc50 4y ago
      But it does mean your options for promotion and salary increase are clearly limited. And in tech there's strong evidence that more career development happens when you move companies than within a company. You may find there's nowhere better to go, but switching to "looking externally" rather than "looking internally" for new jobs is definitely a good idea.

NickRandom 4y ago

This nervousness is what companies rely on to keep the ship steady during massive lay-offs. In other words that same company that in its heyday relied on the person pulling an all-nighter 'for the good of the company' yet failed to ever offer a reciprocal 'sure, take all the paid time off you need buddy' in return gets what it earned. Although you may hear the 'rats from a sinking ship' and 'you're deserting the company and leaving your colleagues to pick up the slack' shrieked from on down high by management - Fuck 'em. They didn't actually give a shit about you on the way up and they don't give a shit about you on the way down. Jump fast, jump early, beat the pack

alecbz 4y ago
I don't at all mean that I feel guilty about abandoning the company or anything like that, I'm saying this 100% from a place of selfishness. Wherever I am, I want my manager to think I'm engaged, I want to seem like a team-player. I worry that otherwise, I won't do as well at perf, I won't get put on interesting/meaningful work, I'll be relegated to the side and not feel as integrated into the team. It's possible some of these are unfounded/exaggerated fears, though? If you're 100% set on leaving with or without severance, for sure ask. But if you think you might prefer to stay if severance isn't an option, asking feels risky.
- neltnerb 4y ago
  I think what you are describing is both a reasonable worry and also exactly the kind of ambiguity the company encourages. You have no leverage if you're unwilling to leave, and it's foolish to initiate a discussion like that from a position of dependency. I'm not suggesting issuing ultimatums, of course, I'm just suggesting that you mentally prepare for needing to quit first, otherwise it takes a real pro to have that conversation. I know I'm not good enough to do it unless I talk about things like that with my manager regularly already. I do wonder if these are questions you can ask confidentially in a different way. Like I dunno how big your place is but you might find this information easily in a meeting with HR, but HR is there to help the company (not you) so it depends on their priorities a lot. It's a very reasonable thing to wonder about when tens of thousands of people just got laid off from similar positions... I'd think a reasonable manager or HR person would understand that. But I certainly can't argue that managers and HR people are all reasonable!