4 ms·

> This is NOT a good thing I think this depends on ideology a lot. In europe the sentiment is to improve the life and livelihood of the average person on avera

by linza 4y ago

> This is NOT a good thing I think this depends on ideology a lot. In europe the sentiment is to improve the life and livelihood of the average person on average, and not that of a few CEOs, and labour laws reflect that. The cynic inside me tells me this results in universal health care, better infrastructure, less divide between poor and rich and thus less crime on average, ... in europe. In the US you have super rich CEOs fueling policies to make the rich richer. Maybe my reasoning here is not true, but I take these quality of life improvements over all the tech unicorns any time.

bluedevil2k 4y ago
The counterpoint to the items you listed as Europe doing better than the United States (better infrastructure is very debatable) is that Europe suffers from perpetual stagnant economic growth, extremely low tech worker pay, brain drain of the best talent leaving for the US and few revolutionary tech ideas. The American ideology can't be dismissed as simply benefitting a few CEOs when there's so so many Americans earning compensation well above what's possible for a European. Granted, it comes at the expense of the lower class in the US, but as you point out, it depends on the ideology.
- achenet 4y ago
  having lived in both the US and Europe for over a decade each - I'd rather have happier poor people that happier rich people. The sign of a first world country isn't having a bunch of billionaires - you have those in Brazil and Russia. It's when the poorest people in your country still can have healthy, meaningful lives. Honestly, from my point of view, the US is a 3rd world country, but I expect that viewpoint to be very controversial.
  - prottog 4y ago
    You're right, I find that point of view to be very controversial. I've been to rich and poor parts of the US and Europe, and currently live in a US state that's in the bottom quintile of per capita incomes among states. There's absolutely no comparison to actual third world countries. I'd love to hear your supporting arguments for your position.
  - boeingUH60 4y ago
    > Honestly, from my point of view, the US is a 3rd world country, but I expect that viewpoint to be very controversial. As someone who lives in a real third-world country...I'm of the opinion that this is a silly thing to say. Yeah, the world's biggest economy ($23T GDP) that constantly sends payloads to outer space and back is third-world...maybe you could come live in a place with 80% of people below the poverty line and see what third-world is.
    - kcplate 4y ago
      This is a good perspective, I can’t imagine anyone who has lived in or spent any significant time in a third world country making such a ridiculous claim. When a country’s poor can still manage to be overweight, have cell phones, have gaming consoles, have automobiles…your perception of poor might be a tad subjective. And before folks go off on the “what abouts”, yes I realize there are some folks in the US without those things, but let’s face it, you sample just about any “poor” person in the US, you will find at least 50%+ of the things I listed. I doubt that you could do that with a random sample of the poor in say Burundi
      - djmips 4y ago
        Cell phones are ubiquitous now even in poor countries.
- jacooper 4y ago
  I think a good way to summarize it is: The life in the EU is good for everyone, In the US its great for the rich and high earners, but hell for everyone else.
  - prottog 4y ago
    > but hell for everyone else Maybe "not as good for everyone else", but "hell" is such a big exaggeration. I know plenty of working-class people -- think barbers, construction workers, baristas -- who live happy lives. The US isn't some dystopia where if you're not a millionaire you're living in a slum.
annyeonghada 4y ago
>In europe the sentiment is to improve the life and livelihood of the average person on average, and not that of a few CEOs, and labour laws reflect that. Please, I live in an area with high taxes and I've yet to see the return on the investment. Healthcare? If you have a minor condition and you can wait or if you have a dangerous condition and you cannot wait then it's great. For all the other illness that are life-damaging but not life-ending? I hope you are rich enough to pay for a private practice. That's what my family has been doing for years on top of the above-mentioned taxes. As for CEOs compensation: even low earning people in the USA are above average earning in Europe (I repeat, on top of high taxes) while in Europe the best way to make money is through inheritance. Yes, in the USA your parents socio-economic status is very important in giving you a head start but you at least you can participate in the race, while here there's not even a race to speak of; even if I do everything right: STEM degree, programming, speaking multiple languages and so on and on and on... you will probably end up in the same economical status of your parents. And let's not speak about the unemployment of Southern Europe: a different can of worm that has eaten the future of an entire generation, especially men: it is a bomb ready to explode.
- prottog 4y ago
  > even low earning people in the USA are above average earning in Europe The state of Mississippi, which many enjoy comparing to third-world countries, has a higher average disposable household income than does Germany. People, especially Americans of a certain class, have a very twisted view of how wealthy the average European is.
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    And Mississippi is truly the shittiest state with by far the highest poverty rate and lowest literacy rate. The other 49 states are even nicer than europe.
prottog 4y ago
> the sentiment is to improve the life and livelihood of the average person Policies based on good sentiment almost always result in hidden costs that run counter to those sentiments. Strong employees' rights in Europe mean that companies are much more reluctant to hire, since poor performers cannot be let go easily. This is especially devastating to young people who cannot find a foothold in an entry-level job to develop their careers; see youth employment rates in Spain (over a third) or France (one-fifth). Same with rent control and other tenant protections, which is another sentimental policy that results in poor real-world outcomes. Sweden famously has a national average waitlist nearing a decade for rent-controlled housing, but this problem is by no means limited to Europe; if you compare states in the US with strong tenant rights vs. strong landlord rights, you'll find that the latter has much lower rents at comparable population densities. > I take these quality of life improvements over all the tech unicorns any time There has been more immigration from Europe to the US than the other way around for decades, so a lot of people do value the factors that enable those tech unicorns to flourish in the US.

by linza 4y ago

bluedevil2k 4y ago

The counterpoint to the items you listed as Europe doing better than the United States (better infrastructure is very debatable) is that Europe suffers from perpetual stagnant economic growth, extremely low tech worker pay, brain drain of the best talent leaving for the US and few revolutionary tech ideas. The American ideology can't be dismissed as simply benefitting a few CEOs when there's so so many Americans earning compensation well above what's possible for a European. Granted, it comes at the expense of the lower class in the US, but as you point out, it depends on the ideology.

achenet 4y ago
having lived in both the US and Europe for over a decade each - I'd rather have happier poor people that happier rich people. The sign of a first world country isn't having a bunch of billionaires - you have those in Brazil and Russia. It's when the poorest people in your country still can have healthy, meaningful lives. Honestly, from my point of view, the US is a 3rd world country, but I expect that viewpoint to be very controversial.
- prottog 4y ago
  You're right, I find that point of view to be very controversial. I've been to rich and poor parts of the US and Europe, and currently live in a US state that's in the bottom quintile of per capita incomes among states. There's absolutely no comparison to actual third world countries. I'd love to hear your supporting arguments for your position.
- boeingUH60 4y ago
  > Honestly, from my point of view, the US is a 3rd world country, but I expect that viewpoint to be very controversial. As someone who lives in a real third-world country...I'm of the opinion that this is a silly thing to say. Yeah, the world's biggest economy ($23T GDP) that constantly sends payloads to outer space and back is third-world...maybe you could come live in a place with 80% of people below the poverty line and see what third-world is.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    This is a good perspective, I can’t imagine anyone who has lived in or spent any significant time in a third world country making such a ridiculous claim. When a country’s poor can still manage to be overweight, have cell phones, have gaming consoles, have automobiles…your perception of poor might be a tad subjective. And before folks go off on the “what abouts”, yes I realize there are some folks in the US without those things, but let’s face it, you sample just about any “poor” person in the US, you will find at least 50%+ of the things I listed. I doubt that you could do that with a random sample of the poor in say Burundi
    - djmips 4y ago
      Cell phones are ubiquitous now even in poor countries.
jacooper 4y ago
I think a good way to summarize it is: The life in the EU is good for everyone, In the US its great for the rich and high earners, but hell for everyone else.
- prottog 4y ago
  > but hell for everyone else Maybe "not as good for everyone else", but "hell" is such a big exaggeration. I know plenty of working-class people -- think barbers, construction workers, baristas -- who live happy lives. The US isn't some dystopia where if you're not a millionaire you're living in a slum.

annyeonghada 4y ago

>In europe the sentiment is to improve the life and livelihood of the average person on average, and not that of a few CEOs, and labour laws reflect that. Please, I live in an area with high taxes and I've yet to see the return on the investment. Healthcare? If you have a minor condition and you can wait or if you have a dangerous condition and you cannot wait then it's great. For all the other illness that are life-damaging but not life-ending? I hope you are rich enough to pay for a private practice. That's what my family has been doing for years on top of the above-mentioned taxes. As for CEOs compensation: even low earning people in the USA are above average earning in Europe (I repeat, on top of high taxes) while in Europe the best way to make money is through inheritance. Yes, in the USA your parents socio-economic status is very important in giving you a head start but you at least you can participate in the race, while here there's not even a race to speak of; even if I do everything right: STEM degree, programming, speaking multiple languages and so on and on and on... you will probably end up in the same economical status of your parents. And let's not speak about the unemployment of Southern Europe: a different can of worm that has eaten the future of an entire generation, especially men: it is a bomb ready to explode.

prottog 4y ago
> even low earning people in the USA are above average earning in Europe The state of Mississippi, which many enjoy comparing to third-world countries, has a higher average disposable household income than does Germany. People, especially Americans of a certain class, have a very twisted view of how wealthy the average European is.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  And Mississippi is truly the shittiest state with by far the highest poverty rate and lowest literacy rate. The other 49 states are even nicer than europe.

prottog 4y ago

> the sentiment is to improve the life and livelihood of the average person Policies based on good sentiment almost always result in hidden costs that run counter to those sentiments. Strong employees' rights in Europe mean that companies are much more reluctant to hire, since poor performers cannot be let go easily. This is especially devastating to young people who cannot find a foothold in an entry-level job to develop their careers; see youth employment rates in Spain (over a third) or France (one-fifth). Same with rent control and other tenant protections, which is another sentimental policy that results in poor real-world outcomes. Sweden famously has a national average waitlist nearing a decade for rent-controlled housing, but this problem is by no means limited to Europe; if you compare states in the US with strong tenant rights vs. strong landlord rights, you'll find that the latter has much lower rents at comparable population densities. > I take these quality of life improvements over all the tech unicorns any time There has been more immigration from Europe to the US than the other way around for decades, so a lot of people do value the factors that enable those tech unicorns to flourish in the US.