4 ms·

Your comment is comical, given the state of labor laws in most of Europe. True, those labor laws are under attack, but they still stand, and such layoff would

Your comment is comical, given the state of labor laws in most of Europe. True, those labor laws are under attack, but they still stand, and such layoff would be so costly there that they could hardly happen. 4 months is not generous, it is under the legal minimum in many countries, provided you've been with the employer long enough.

eps 4y ago
However in the same "many countries" the tab is picked up by the state in a form of unemployment payouts. Not 100%, granted, but can go as high as 80%.
bluedevil2k 4y ago
And you've just outlined the reasons why 94% of Big Tech is in the United States. Number of unicorns in the United States in March 2022 = 607, number in mainland Europe = 42. You're going to argue that 4 months severance from FB, where average developer pay is the highest in the world with Sr. Engineers getting $300k in cash compensation is worse than 6-12 months severance from a European tech company, where cash comp is 20% of that? > would be so costly there that they could hardly happen This is NOT a good thing
- Shoue 4y ago
  By that same logic you'd make the argument that "94% of abusive work places" exist in poorer countries with far less worker rights. Is that something you want to happen to the US, third world country like working conditions just so corporations are more likely to hire Americans? Or maybe we should be working on upping the baseline standards surrounding workers rights?
- linza 4y ago
  > This is NOT a good thing I think this depends on ideology a lot. In europe the sentiment is to improve the life and livelihood of the average person on average, and not that of a few CEOs, and labour laws reflect that. The cynic inside me tells me this results in universal health care, better infrastructure, less divide between poor and rich and thus less crime on average, ... in europe. In the US you have super rich CEOs fueling policies to make the rich richer. Maybe my reasoning here is not true, but I take these quality of life improvements over all the tech unicorns any time.
  - bluedevil2k 4y ago
    The counterpoint to the items you listed as Europe doing better than the United States (better infrastructure is very debatable) is that Europe suffers from perpetual stagnant economic growth, extremely low tech worker pay, brain drain of the best talent leaving for the US and few revolutionary tech ideas. The American ideology can't be dismissed as simply benefitting a few CEOs when there's so so many Americans earning compensation well above what's possible for a European. Granted, it comes at the expense of the lower class in the US, but as you point out, it depends on the ideology.
    - achenet 4y ago
      having lived in both the US and Europe for over a decade each - I'd rather have happier poor people that happier rich people. The sign of a first world country isn't having a bunch of billionaires - you have those in Brazil and Russia. It's when the poorest people in your country still can have healthy, meaningful lives. Honestly, from my point of view, the US is a 3rd world country, but I expect that viewpoint to be very controversial.
      - prottog 4y ago
        You're right, I find that point of view to be very controversial. I've been to rich and poor parts of the US and Europe, and currently live in a US state that's in the bottom quintile of per capita incomes among states. There's absolutely no comparison to actual third world countries. I'd love to hear your supporting arguments for your position.
      - boeingUH60 4y ago
        > Honestly, from my point of view, the US is a 3rd world country, but I expect that viewpoint to be very controversial. As someone who lives in a real third-world country...I'm of the opinion that this is a silly thing to say. Yeah, the world's biggest economy ($23T GDP) that constantly sends payloads to outer space and back is third-world...maybe you could come live in a place with 80% of people below the poverty line and see what third-world is.
- hashar 4y ago
  I am also not sure how you got the 42 unicorns figure for Europe, https://europeanunicornmap.com/ https://europeanunicornmap.com/ lists 130 of them and I am guessing it keeps growing. We have plenty of almost unicorns here in Europe, then they tend to be smaller. Albeit the European Union market is roughly equivalent to the USA one in term of population or wealth, it is heavily fragmented legally and culturally. If you want to grow out of your country, you get to address the challenge of various different cultural differences be it for your product, running a business or entirely different laws. And sometime there is not even a market cause your solution is already addressed in some of the other countries. > You're going to argue that 4 months severance from FB, where average developer pay is the highest in the world with Sr. Engineers getting $300k in cash compensation Those would involves RSU which I guess do not get vetted, even so 4 months several when having a $300k salaries yields out a $100k severance. > is worse than 6-12 months severance from a European tech company, where cash comp is 20% of that? I am not sure it would be that large. At least for France it is 25% of a monthly wage per year of tenure. So for a 5 years employment that would be 1,25 months. Then you get unemployment benefits, usually a package to assist in finding a new job and of course you keep your healthcare coverage. The system is entirely different really. We get less lump sum but have a lot of other benefits which definitely help in rough time.
bradleyjg 4y ago
4 months of SV SWE pay is going to be higher than 10 mo of German SWE pay. The market rate is much much lower. Those labor laws might have something to do with that.
- random314 4y ago
  > Those labor laws might have something to do with that. No it doesn't. Life expectancy in the United states is declining. Perhaps labor law has something to do with it.
- stoobs 4y ago
  How does the cost of living compare? The wage in SV might be higher, but with astronomical rents etc, you might actually be better off in real terms with the German 10 months.
  - bradleyjg 4y ago
    It’s a reasonable point in general but not in this specific case. German (and western continental Europe in general) software engineering salaries are like dotcom and everything since didn’t happen. It’s not just a percentage here or there.
bluesign 4y ago
It is not comical, you pay for this benefit in Europe with lower salary.
aulin 4y ago
Europe laws mandate severance for roughly 1 month pay per year served. Unemployment payments can last more than 4 months but you won't get even remotely close to your previous salary, especially with a FAANG salary. This seems a way better treatment than what you would get from labor laws anywhere in Europe.
jfk13 4y ago
Note that FB isn't giving a flat 4 months (for US employees); the email says that severance is "16 weeks of base pay plus two additional weeks for every year of service".

eps 4y ago

However in the same "many countries" the tab is picked up by the state in a form of unemployment payouts. Not 100%, granted, but can go as high as 80%.

bluedevil2k 4y ago

And you've just outlined the reasons why 94% of Big Tech is in the United States. Number of unicorns in the United States in March 2022 = 607, number in mainland Europe = 42. You're going to argue that 4 months severance from FB, where average developer pay is the highest in the world with Sr. Engineers getting $300k in cash compensation is worse than 6-12 months severance from a European tech company, where cash comp is 20% of that? > would be so costly there that they could hardly happen This is NOT a good thing

Shoue 4y ago
By that same logic you'd make the argument that "94% of abusive work places" exist in poorer countries with far less worker rights. Is that something you want to happen to the US, third world country like working conditions just so corporations are more likely to hire Americans? Or maybe we should be working on upping the baseline standards surrounding workers rights?
linza 4y ago
> This is NOT a good thing I think this depends on ideology a lot. In europe the sentiment is to improve the life and livelihood of the average person on average, and not that of a few CEOs, and labour laws reflect that. The cynic inside me tells me this results in universal health care, better infrastructure, less divide between poor and rich and thus less crime on average, ... in europe. In the US you have super rich CEOs fueling policies to make the rich richer. Maybe my reasoning here is not true, but I take these quality of life improvements over all the tech unicorns any time.
- bluedevil2k 4y ago
  The counterpoint to the items you listed as Europe doing better than the United States (better infrastructure is very debatable) is that Europe suffers from perpetual stagnant economic growth, extremely low tech worker pay, brain drain of the best talent leaving for the US and few revolutionary tech ideas. The American ideology can't be dismissed as simply benefitting a few CEOs when there's so so many Americans earning compensation well above what's possible for a European. Granted, it comes at the expense of the lower class in the US, but as you point out, it depends on the ideology.
  - achenet 4y ago
    having lived in both the US and Europe for over a decade each - I'd rather have happier poor people that happier rich people. The sign of a first world country isn't having a bunch of billionaires - you have those in Brazil and Russia. It's when the poorest people in your country still can have healthy, meaningful lives. Honestly, from my point of view, the US is a 3rd world country, but I expect that viewpoint to be very controversial.
    - prottog 4y ago
      You're right, I find that point of view to be very controversial. I've been to rich and poor parts of the US and Europe, and currently live in a US state that's in the bottom quintile of per capita incomes among states. There's absolutely no comparison to actual third world countries. I'd love to hear your supporting arguments for your position.
    - boeingUH60 4y ago
      > Honestly, from my point of view, the US is a 3rd world country, but I expect that viewpoint to be very controversial. As someone who lives in a real third-world country...I'm of the opinion that this is a silly thing to say. Yeah, the world's biggest economy ($23T GDP) that constantly sends payloads to outer space and back is third-world...maybe you could come live in a place with 80% of people below the poverty line and see what third-world is.
hashar 4y ago
I am also not sure how you got the 42 unicorns figure for Europe, https://europeanunicornmap.com/ https://europeanunicornmap.com/ lists 130 of them and I am guessing it keeps growing. We have plenty of almost unicorns here in Europe, then they tend to be smaller. Albeit the European Union market is roughly equivalent to the USA one in term of population or wealth, it is heavily fragmented legally and culturally. If you want to grow out of your country, you get to address the challenge of various different cultural differences be it for your product, running a business or entirely different laws. And sometime there is not even a market cause your solution is already addressed in some of the other countries. > You're going to argue that 4 months severance from FB, where average developer pay is the highest in the world with Sr. Engineers getting $300k in cash compensation Those would involves RSU which I guess do not get vetted, even so 4 months several when having a $300k salaries yields out a $100k severance. > is worse than 6-12 months severance from a European tech company, where cash comp is 20% of that? I am not sure it would be that large. At least for France it is 25% of a monthly wage per year of tenure. So for a 5 years employment that would be 1,25 months. Then you get unemployment benefits, usually a package to assist in finding a new job and of course you keep your healthcare coverage. The system is entirely different really. We get less lump sum but have a lot of other benefits which definitely help in rough time.

bradleyjg 4y ago

4 months of SV SWE pay is going to be higher than 10 mo of German SWE pay. The market rate is much much lower. Those labor laws might have something to do with that.

random314 4y ago
> Those labor laws might have something to do with that. No it doesn't. Life expectancy in the United states is declining. Perhaps labor law has something to do with it.
stoobs 4y ago
How does the cost of living compare? The wage in SV might be higher, but with astronomical rents etc, you might actually be better off in real terms with the German 10 months.
- bradleyjg 4y ago
  It’s a reasonable point in general but not in this specific case. German (and western continental Europe in general) software engineering salaries are like dotcom and everything since didn’t happen. It’s not just a percentage here or there.

bluesign 4y ago

It is not comical, you pay for this benefit in Europe with lower salary.

aulin 4y ago

Europe laws mandate severance for roughly 1 month pay per year served. Unemployment payments can last more than 4 months but you won't get even remotely close to your previous salary, especially with a FAANG salary. This seems a way better treatment than what you would get from labor laws anywhere in Europe.

jfk13 4y ago

Note that FB isn't giving a flat 4 months (for US employees); the email says that severance is "16 weeks of base pay plus two additional weeks for every year of service".