8 ms·

Four months of pay may not be that much if you moved to another country or continent with your family for this job. While it's probably easy to land on your fe

Four months of pay may not be that much if you moved to another country or continent with your family for this job. While it's probably easy to land on your feet and find something with a good pay in SV or London, it's probably not the case everywhere. 4 months of pay for this kind of trouble doesn't look like a good deal to me.

bluedevil2k 4y ago
4 months of pay at the highest paying software company in the world is FAR more generous than you're going to see from any company anywhere in the world.
- linschn 4y ago
  Your comment is comical, given the state of labor laws in most of Europe. True, those labor laws are under attack, but they still stand, and such layoff would be so costly there that they could hardly happen. 4 months is not generous, it is under the legal minimum in many countries, provided you've been with the employer long enough.
  - eps 4y ago
    However in the same "many countries" the tab is picked up by the state in a form of unemployment payouts. Not 100%, granted, but can go as high as 80%.
  - bluedevil2k 4y ago
    And you've just outlined the reasons why 94% of Big Tech is in the United States. Number of unicorns in the United States in March 2022 = 607, number in mainland Europe = 42. You're going to argue that 4 months severance from FB, where average developer pay is the highest in the world with Sr. Engineers getting $300k in cash compensation is worse than 6-12 months severance from a European tech company, where cash comp is 20% of that? > would be so costly there that they could hardly happen This is NOT a good thing
    - Shoue 4y ago
      By that same logic you'd make the argument that "94% of abusive work places" exist in poorer countries with far less worker rights. Is that something you want to happen to the US, third world country like working conditions just so corporations are more likely to hire Americans? Or maybe we should be working on upping the baseline standards surrounding workers rights?
    - linza 4y ago
      > This is NOT a good thing I think this depends on ideology a lot. In europe the sentiment is to improve the life and livelihood of the average person on average, and not that of a few CEOs, and labour laws reflect that. The cynic inside me tells me this results in universal health care, better infrastructure, less divide between poor and rich and thus less crime on average, ... in europe. In the US you have super rich CEOs fueling policies to make the rich richer. Maybe my reasoning here is not true, but I take these quality of life improvements over all the tech unicorns any time.
      - bluedevil2k 4y ago
        The counterpoint to the items you listed as Europe doing better than the United States (better infrastructure is very debatable) is that Europe suffers from perpetual stagnant economic growth, extremely low tech worker pay, brain drain of the best talent leaving for the US and few revolutionary tech ideas. The American ideology can't be dismissed as simply benefitting a few CEOs when there's so so many Americans earning compensation well above what's possible for a European. Granted, it comes at the expense of the lower class in the US, but as you point out, it depends on the ideology.
        achenet 4y ago
        having lived in both the US and Europe for over a decade each - I'd rather have happier poor people that happier rich people. The sign of a first world country isn't having a bunch of billionaires - you have those in Brazil and Russia. It's when the poorest people in your country still can have healthy, meaningful lives. Honestly, from my point of view, the US is a 3rd world country, but I expect that viewpoint to be very controversial.
  - bradleyjg 4y ago
    4 months of SV SWE pay is going to be higher than 10 mo of German SWE pay. The market rate is much much lower. Those labor laws might have something to do with that.
    - random314 4y ago
      > Those labor laws might have something to do with that. No it doesn't. Life expectancy in the United states is declining. Perhaps labor law has something to do with it.
    - stoobs 4y ago
      How does the cost of living compare? The wage in SV might be higher, but with astronomical rents etc, you might actually be better off in real terms with the German 10 months.
      - bradleyjg 4y ago
        It’s a reasonable point in general but not in this specific case. German (and western continental Europe in general) software engineering salaries are like dotcom and everything since didn’t happen. It’s not just a percentage here or there.
  - bluesign 4y ago
    It is not comical, you pay for this benefit in Europe with lower salary.
  - aulin 4y ago
    Europe laws mandate severance for roughly 1 month pay per year served. Unemployment payments can last more than 4 months but you won't get even remotely close to your previous salary, especially with a FAANG salary. This seems a way better treatment than what you would get from labor laws anywhere in Europe.
  - jfk13 4y ago
    Note that FB isn't giving a flat 4 months (for US employees); the email says that severance is "16 weeks of base pay plus two additional weeks for every year of service".
- tallanvor 4y ago
  Not really. If my employer wanted to lay me off, they'd realistically end up paying me at least 6 months worth of severance. But I live in a pro-worker country and am in a union.
- evandijk70 4y ago
  The legal minimum compensation in the Netherlands for 'termination due to worsening financial conditions of the company' is given by: Compensation = (years worked at company/3)*monthly salary. This comes on top of the minimum notice period, which is given by: notice period (in months) = floor(years_worked/5) + 1 In many cases, employers and employees agree that the employee will not work after having received notice, but are asked to be available to help answer questions their replacements might have during this period. The employee still receives their salary during this time (even if they find new employment), so effectively this notice period can be added to their compensation. So for many employees in the Netherlands, the minimum legal compensation is better than what these employees will receive. In practice their compensation is often better than the minimum legal compensation.
  - bluedevil2k 4y ago
    Most developers in SV bounce around companies every 2-4 years, so using your Netherlands formula, they'd only get Compensation = 1.3 months of salary, Notice = 1 month.
- martius 4y ago
  It doesn't make it "a very good deal".
culopatin 4y ago
It’s more than you get in any normal place in the US, in many states you get a thank you handshake and someone holding the door for you. It’s a risk you choose to take when you work in the US instead of somewhere in Europe or some other country with better worker protections.

bluedevil2k 4y ago

4 months of pay at the highest paying software company in the world is FAR more generous than you're going to see from any company anywhere in the world.

linschn 4y ago
Your comment is comical, given the state of labor laws in most of Europe. True, those labor laws are under attack, but they still stand, and such layoff would be so costly there that they could hardly happen. 4 months is not generous, it is under the legal minimum in many countries, provided you've been with the employer long enough.
- eps 4y ago
  However in the same "many countries" the tab is picked up by the state in a form of unemployment payouts. Not 100%, granted, but can go as high as 80%.
- bluedevil2k 4y ago
  And you've just outlined the reasons why 94% of Big Tech is in the United States. Number of unicorns in the United States in March 2022 = 607, number in mainland Europe = 42. You're going to argue that 4 months severance from FB, where average developer pay is the highest in the world with Sr. Engineers getting $300k in cash compensation is worse than 6-12 months severance from a European tech company, where cash comp is 20% of that? > would be so costly there that they could hardly happen This is NOT a good thing
  - Shoue 4y ago
    By that same logic you'd make the argument that "94% of abusive work places" exist in poorer countries with far less worker rights. Is that something you want to happen to the US, third world country like working conditions just so corporations are more likely to hire Americans? Or maybe we should be working on upping the baseline standards surrounding workers rights?
  - linza 4y ago
    > This is NOT a good thing I think this depends on ideology a lot. In europe the sentiment is to improve the life and livelihood of the average person on average, and not that of a few CEOs, and labour laws reflect that. The cynic inside me tells me this results in universal health care, better infrastructure, less divide between poor and rich and thus less crime on average, ... in europe. In the US you have super rich CEOs fueling policies to make the rich richer. Maybe my reasoning here is not true, but I take these quality of life improvements over all the tech unicorns any time.
    - bluedevil2k 4y ago
      The counterpoint to the items you listed as Europe doing better than the United States (better infrastructure is very debatable) is that Europe suffers from perpetual stagnant economic growth, extremely low tech worker pay, brain drain of the best talent leaving for the US and few revolutionary tech ideas. The American ideology can't be dismissed as simply benefitting a few CEOs when there's so so many Americans earning compensation well above what's possible for a European. Granted, it comes at the expense of the lower class in the US, but as you point out, it depends on the ideology.
      - achenet 4y ago
        having lived in both the US and Europe for over a decade each - I'd rather have happier poor people that happier rich people. The sign of a first world country isn't having a bunch of billionaires - you have those in Brazil and Russia. It's when the poorest people in your country still can have healthy, meaningful lives. Honestly, from my point of view, the US is a 3rd world country, but I expect that viewpoint to be very controversial.
- bradleyjg 4y ago
  4 months of SV SWE pay is going to be higher than 10 mo of German SWE pay. The market rate is much much lower. Those labor laws might have something to do with that.
  - random314 4y ago
    > Those labor laws might have something to do with that. No it doesn't. Life expectancy in the United states is declining. Perhaps labor law has something to do with it.
  - stoobs 4y ago
    How does the cost of living compare? The wage in SV might be higher, but with astronomical rents etc, you might actually be better off in real terms with the German 10 months.
    - bradleyjg 4y ago
      It’s a reasonable point in general but not in this specific case. German (and western continental Europe in general) software engineering salaries are like dotcom and everything since didn’t happen. It’s not just a percentage here or there.
- bluesign 4y ago
  It is not comical, you pay for this benefit in Europe with lower salary.
- aulin 4y ago
  Europe laws mandate severance for roughly 1 month pay per year served. Unemployment payments can last more than 4 months but you won't get even remotely close to your previous salary, especially with a FAANG salary. This seems a way better treatment than what you would get from labor laws anywhere in Europe.
- jfk13 4y ago
  Note that FB isn't giving a flat 4 months (for US employees); the email says that severance is "16 weeks of base pay plus two additional weeks for every year of service".
tallanvor 4y ago
Not really. If my employer wanted to lay me off, they'd realistically end up paying me at least 6 months worth of severance. But I live in a pro-worker country and am in a union.
evandijk70 4y ago
The legal minimum compensation in the Netherlands for 'termination due to worsening financial conditions of the company' is given by: Compensation = (years worked at company/3)*monthly salary. This comes on top of the minimum notice period, which is given by: notice period (in months) = floor(years_worked/5) + 1 In many cases, employers and employees agree that the employee will not work after having received notice, but are asked to be available to help answer questions their replacements might have during this period. The employee still receives their salary during this time (even if they find new employment), so effectively this notice period can be added to their compensation. So for many employees in the Netherlands, the minimum legal compensation is better than what these employees will receive. In practice their compensation is often better than the minimum legal compensation.
- bluedevil2k 4y ago
  Most developers in SV bounce around companies every 2-4 years, so using your Netherlands formula, they'd only get Compensation = 1.3 months of salary, Notice = 1 month.
martius 4y ago
It doesn't make it "a very good deal".

culopatin 4y ago

It’s more than you get in any normal place in the US, in many states you get a thank you handshake and someone holding the door for you. It’s a risk you choose to take when you work in the US instead of somewhere in Europe or some other country with better worker protections.