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Saving that IP to the webserver's log is rather necessary for it to function, whereas these detailed records of user behaviour can almost never be. Just becaus

by krono 4y ago

Saving that IP to the webserver's log is rather necessary for it to function, whereas these detailed records of user behaviour can almost never be. Just because someone uses an application, does not mean you "own" them and have a moral right to freely collect and do whatever you want with records of their behaviour. Also it's just weird.

cmeacham98 4y ago
Please explain how webserver logging is "necessary for it to function".
- krono 4y ago
  - cmeacham98 4y ago
    So I'll take that as you can't demonstrate it? Interestingly, I started up an Nginx server and piped the logs to /dev/null and it worked just fine!! Wow, turns out those logs weren't necessary at all. And by your standard, where tracking that isn't necessary for the website to function is unethical, that makes every single person running Nginx in its default configuration bad and participating in unethical tracking of users!
    - cmeacham98 4y ago
      Because it doesn't seem like I'm going to get a response to this, I'll walk down the rest of the logic for completeness's sake. I think we can both agree that "all unnecessary tracking is unethical" doesn't make sense and leads to insane conclusions like "all Nginx users with IP addresses in their logs are participating in unethical tracking". So we're back to square one, where someone needs to demonstrate this type of tracking is actually unethical. So far we've got "all tracking ever is unethical" and "all tracking not necessary for function is unethical", but both of those seem to be dead ends.
      - newaccount74 4y ago
        I think the argument is a bit nuanced, but I see where the "tracking is bad" comes from. I think everyone would agree that it would be very bad if eg. an instant messaging app logged message contents and allowed devs to look at anyones messages. On the other hand, most people would not object to an app that sends an anonymous weekly counter of which buttons were tapped. Anything between these two takes a lot of care and deliberation; on the one hand devs want useable data, on the other hand users don't want sensitive data tracked. But it takes a lot of effort to make sure you don't accidentally log sensitive data. Eg. if you log spell check suggestions (to determine common typos) you might probably be able to use that data to reconstruct message contents. Now, as a user, do I trust random companies to get this right? Do I trust random companies to not accidentally log sensitive data? And the answer to that question is NO, I don't trust them. So if you ask me if I would consent to activity tracking, I would almost definitely say no, even though I don't think anything is wrong with anonymous usage tracking -- I just don't trust every company to get this right, so I'd rather have them not track anything at all.
        Nullabillity 4y ago
        > On the other hand, most people would not object to an app that sends an anonymous weekly counter of which buttons were tapped. Considering how often companies misuse even this data...
        cmeacham98 4y ago
        Of course I agree there is nuance, but that's the point I'm trying to make. So far every argument I've seen against it in this thread is along the lines of "all tracking is bad" or "[overly broad category of tracking] is bad". Nobody seems to be willing to substantiate the more nuanced claim of why this specific type of tracking is bad. For the record, I agree that this type of tracking should require consent (or at least be able to be turned off).
      - krono 4y ago
        The following is meant as constructive feedback, and I hope you will take it as such even if it happens you disagree: Your comments here consistently come across as highly adversarial: Assumptions and conclusions are liberally asserted, every sentence only attacks, there is no room for nuance, and attempts to find common ground are either mistaken for a new enemy assault or remain unrecognised entirely. This makes for an uninviting and frustrating conversation, which is a real shame because you are clearly not a stupid person. Admittedly my previous comment was not very constructive either. An unfortunate outing of my frustrations at the time. Again, I post this with genuinely positive intent, and hope that when we next cross paths it might lead to a more constructive and enjoyable talk!

by krono 4y ago

cmeacham98 4y ago

Please explain how webserver logging is "necessary for it to function".

krono 4y ago
- cmeacham98 4y ago
  So I'll take that as you can't demonstrate it? Interestingly, I started up an Nginx server and piped the logs to /dev/null and it worked just fine!! Wow, turns out those logs weren't necessary at all. And by your standard, where tracking that isn't necessary for the website to function is unethical, that makes every single person running Nginx in its default configuration bad and participating in unethical tracking of users!
  - cmeacham98 4y ago
    Because it doesn't seem like I'm going to get a response to this, I'll walk down the rest of the logic for completeness's sake. I think we can both agree that "all unnecessary tracking is unethical" doesn't make sense and leads to insane conclusions like "all Nginx users with IP addresses in their logs are participating in unethical tracking". So we're back to square one, where someone needs to demonstrate this type of tracking is actually unethical. So far we've got "all tracking ever is unethical" and "all tracking not necessary for function is unethical", but both of those seem to be dead ends.
    - newaccount74 4y ago
      I think the argument is a bit nuanced, but I see where the "tracking is bad" comes from. I think everyone would agree that it would be very bad if eg. an instant messaging app logged message contents and allowed devs to look at anyones messages. On the other hand, most people would not object to an app that sends an anonymous weekly counter of which buttons were tapped. Anything between these two takes a lot of care and deliberation; on the one hand devs want useable data, on the other hand users don't want sensitive data tracked. But it takes a lot of effort to make sure you don't accidentally log sensitive data. Eg. if you log spell check suggestions (to determine common typos) you might probably be able to use that data to reconstruct message contents. Now, as a user, do I trust random companies to get this right? Do I trust random companies to not accidentally log sensitive data? And the answer to that question is NO, I don't trust them. So if you ask me if I would consent to activity tracking, I would almost definitely say no, even though I don't think anything is wrong with anonymous usage tracking -- I just don't trust every company to get this right, so I'd rather have them not track anything at all.
      - Nullabillity 4y ago
        > On the other hand, most people would not object to an app that sends an anonymous weekly counter of which buttons were tapped. Considering how often companies misuse even this data...
      - cmeacham98 4y ago
        Of course I agree there is nuance, but that's the point I'm trying to make. So far every argument I've seen against it in this thread is along the lines of "all tracking is bad" or "[overly broad category of tracking] is bad". Nobody seems to be willing to substantiate the more nuanced claim of why this specific type of tracking is bad. For the record, I agree that this type of tracking should require consent (or at least be able to be turned off).
    - krono 4y ago
      The following is meant as constructive feedback, and I hope you will take it as such even if it happens you disagree: Your comments here consistently come across as highly adversarial: Assumptions and conclusions are liberally asserted, every sentence only attacks, there is no room for nuance, and attempts to find common ground are either mistaken for a new enemy assault or remain unrecognised entirely. This makes for an uninviting and frustrating conversation, which is a real shame because you are clearly not a stupid person. Admittedly my previous comment was not very constructive either. An unfortunate outing of my frustrations at the time. Again, I post this with genuinely positive intent, and hope that when we next cross paths it might lead to a more constructive and enjoyable talk!