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Phoenix with LiveView is an antidote to the pernicious Web we weave. Massive concurrency, hydration, and that ever elusive stateful single page app experience,

by ipnon 4y ago

Phoenix with LiveView is an antidote to the pernicious Web we weave. Massive concurrency, hydration, and that ever elusive stateful single page app experience, are all handled at the framework level instead of in the application. You write the app and it Just Works. If React or the JavaScript du jour isn’t already your horse in the race, Elixir is well worth a weekend test drive.

gorgoiler 4y ago
Do you have a link to something that’s shipped with these technologies?
- ch4s3 4y ago
  I think https://www.cars.com/ https://www.cars.com/ is largely done with LiveView now.
  - fillskills 4y ago
    Its really fast. Their site used to be really slow. Big change
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      They rewrote the whole back of house system from Java to elixir and apparently it’s been a huge success.
      - e3bc54b2 4y ago
        I tried to look around, but is there a blog or something detailing before/after/why etc.? Should be very interesting read..
        yurishimo 4y ago
        This is probably the most comprehensive thing online[0]. Not an article but you can read the transcript of the podcast episode[1]. 0: https://smartlogic.io/podcast/elixir-wizards/s7e2-jose/ https://smartlogic.io/podcast/elixir-wizards/s7e2-jose/ 1: https://smartlogic.io/podcast/elixir-wizards/transcripts/s7e2-jose.txt https://smartlogic.io/podcast/elixir-wizards/transcripts/s7e...
        ch4s3 4y ago
        One of them gave an elixir conf talk about how they built an elixir team[1] and this one from 2022 which isn't online yet[2]. I know a little more about it from talking to them, but couldn't accurately describe the transition from memory. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKifFG4i-bY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKifFG4i-bY [2] https://2022.elixirconf.com/speakers/zack-kayser https://2022.elixirconf.com/speakers/zack-kayser
- throwawaymaths 4y ago
  Discord uses elixir quite a bit. I believe pagerduty as well.
- whoooooo123 4y ago
  Elixir has some case studies written up on its official site. https://elixir-lang.org/cases.html https://elixir-lang.org/cases.html Also there's https://elixir-companies.com/en https://elixir-companies.com/en
ch4s3 4y ago
It even have a jupyter competitor in LiveBook[1]. [1] https://livebook.dev/ https://livebook.dev/
- AlchemistCamp 4y ago
  Unfortunately VIM bindings are a non-goal, so I’m not going to be spending much time with it (due to a history of RSI).
  - fish45 4y ago
    I use it with Firenvim: https://github.com/glacambre/firenvim https://github.com/glacambre/firenvim
    - bongobingo1 4y ago
      When I tried that the in-page editor would fight it ferociously, was there a trick?
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    Yeah, that is unfortunate.
timc3 4y ago
It doesn’t just work in my experience. Once its working it is fine, better than fine in fact. But I am going through a process of upgrading a Phoenix LiveView hobby site and its been miserable. For some reason LiveView has changed between versions, and the documentation isn’t the greatest on explaining why or what to do to remedy it, but its broke my app. I’ve managed to fix the majority of it but then the third party libraries used have not kept up (for authentication of all things). There is so little people using Elixir/Phoenix/LiveView that libraries are often poor quality and maintained by one person or very few people. It makes me miss Django for the batteries included completeness, quality of documentation and eco system. Phoenix also feels a little bit magical in the way Rails is, and I hated Rails for that. Give me configuration over convention and stop with the damn macros. I am also not convinced with Elixir as a language, I miss types, I miss C# and Typescripts documentation or the fact they feel well designed, I want something to replace Python as my goto and Elixir just feels like a dead end that happens to have a web framework with some excellent ideas. So I am currently thinking of rewriting the whole damn thing and leaving Elixir.
- ipnon 4y ago
  I agree with your assessment. You have to know what you’re signing up for. Remaining in the JavaScript ecosystem still maintains many tangible benefits.
- throwawaymaths 4y ago
  Yeah you got bitten by the 0.15-0.16 transition in live view. My condolences. Documentation across the elixir ecosystem is pretty good, I find. I am way more comfortable in elixir ecosystem docs over python ecosystem docs.
  - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
    The transitions from about half of the versions between 0.3 and 0.10 were worse for me. From 0.10 to 0.15 were smooth. 0.16 was tied to phx 1.6, which made it worse again, but I didn’t find it that bad. 0.16 to 0.18 has been mostly okay again, but I’ve seen bugs introduced into an app just by adding IDs to HTML elements with a phx-hook on them. This is a problem since heex templates enforce that each hook does have an ID. It’s also strange that a totally new ID never used elsewhere in the app would break existing JS interop, but it does and it’s what I’ll be working on this week so we can continue upgrading… Not sure what it’s going to be like upgrading to Phoenix 1.7, but I think it’s going to be a major undertaking and unfortunately most my Phoenix-related screencasts will become obsolete. Elixir itself and Ecto have been really stable, though.
weatherlite 4y ago
> If React or the JavaScript du jour isn’t already your horse in the race, If only it were up to us simple devs who actually do the work. But its not. CTOs make the decisions and they bring in tech that "everyone else" is using. That means Java/Node/Python/C#/ and Angular/React is probably 90% of web code out there. I can try fighting the trend and specifically apply to niche tech jobs but its no fun...been doing that with Ruby for awhile until jobs literally dried up where I live. If you live in a remote friendly area (big parts of Europe) you can get by .. but I don't.
tifadg1 4y ago
As someone completely new to js world, I've started learning nextjs and for hobby projects atleast I've come to the conclusion that negative opinions about js are overblown - yes theres not one dominating framework, but that's how innovation is born. Plus they're all about dev experience - you don't have to migrate if you're happy with what you've got. Controversially I'm also pleased about breaking changes if it means things get significantly better and there's less legacy to deal with. All in all a fast-paced ecosystem for a fast-paced world. I did seriously give it a try with elixir but felt I wouldn't appreciate it without dealing with js first, so it'll be something if I ever outraged with js, but between typescript, nextjs, jsx templates and all the excellent vscode tooling I'm happy. Infact much happier than dealing with Django's black magic.
tartoran 4y ago
How’s the job market for elixir? It seems a lot of stacks are popular due to their employability.
- lawik 4y ago
  Not as straight forward as the massive languages as the pool of developers and work are both smaller. But remote EU or US is not very hard if you have some experience (Elixir or in general). Junior positions are quite uncommon and seem to require some hustle on the networking side. Market seems to be cooling a bit for consulting (I do that) as the economy makes companies more careful. None of the highly motivated Elixir devs I know are struggling to find work. Consulting/contract clients has been trickier lately but not impossible. Source: I help companies connect with Elixir devs as a specialist recruiter. And I do contracting/consulting. Feel free to ask questions here or via contact through underjord.io

by ipnon 4y ago

gorgoiler 4y ago

Do you have a link to something that’s shipped with these technologies?

ch4s3 4y ago
I think https://www.cars.com/ https://www.cars.com/ is largely done with LiveView now.
- fillskills 4y ago
  Its really fast. Their site used to be really slow. Big change
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    They rewrote the whole back of house system from Java to elixir and apparently it’s been a huge success.
    - e3bc54b2 4y ago
      I tried to look around, but is there a blog or something detailing before/after/why etc.? Should be very interesting read..
      - yurishimo 4y ago
        This is probably the most comprehensive thing online[0]. Not an article but you can read the transcript of the podcast episode[1]. 0: https://smartlogic.io/podcast/elixir-wizards/s7e2-jose/ https://smartlogic.io/podcast/elixir-wizards/s7e2-jose/ 1: https://smartlogic.io/podcast/elixir-wizards/transcripts/s7e2-jose.txt https://smartlogic.io/podcast/elixir-wizards/transcripts/s7e...
      - ch4s3 4y ago
        One of them gave an elixir conf talk about how they built an elixir team[1] and this one from 2022 which isn't online yet[2]. I know a little more about it from talking to them, but couldn't accurately describe the transition from memory. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKifFG4i-bY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKifFG4i-bY [2] https://2022.elixirconf.com/speakers/zack-kayser https://2022.elixirconf.com/speakers/zack-kayser
throwawaymaths 4y ago
Discord uses elixir quite a bit. I believe pagerduty as well.
whoooooo123 4y ago
Elixir has some case studies written up on its official site. https://elixir-lang.org/cases.html https://elixir-lang.org/cases.html Also there's https://elixir-companies.com/en https://elixir-companies.com/en

ch4s3 4y ago

It even have a jupyter competitor in LiveBook[1]. [1] https://livebook.dev/ https://livebook.dev/

AlchemistCamp 4y ago
Unfortunately VIM bindings are a non-goal, so I’m not going to be spending much time with it (due to a history of RSI).
- fish45 4y ago
  I use it with Firenvim: https://github.com/glacambre/firenvim https://github.com/glacambre/firenvim
  - bongobingo1 4y ago
    When I tried that the in-page editor would fight it ferociously, was there a trick?
- ch4s3 4y ago
  Yeah, that is unfortunate.

timc3 4y ago

It doesn’t just work in my experience. Once its working it is fine, better than fine in fact. But I am going through a process of upgrading a Phoenix LiveView hobby site and its been miserable. For some reason LiveView has changed between versions, and the documentation isn’t the greatest on explaining why or what to do to remedy it, but its broke my app. I’ve managed to fix the majority of it but then the third party libraries used have not kept up (for authentication of all things). There is so little people using Elixir/Phoenix/LiveView that libraries are often poor quality and maintained by one person or very few people. It makes me miss Django for the batteries included completeness, quality of documentation and eco system. Phoenix also feels a little bit magical in the way Rails is, and I hated Rails for that. Give me configuration over convention and stop with the damn macros. I am also not convinced with Elixir as a language, I miss types, I miss C# and Typescripts documentation or the fact they feel well designed, I want something to replace Python as my goto and Elixir just feels like a dead end that happens to have a web framework with some excellent ideas. So I am currently thinking of rewriting the whole damn thing and leaving Elixir.

ipnon 4y ago
I agree with your assessment. You have to know what you’re signing up for. Remaining in the JavaScript ecosystem still maintains many tangible benefits.
throwawaymaths 4y ago
Yeah you got bitten by the 0.15-0.16 transition in live view. My condolences. Documentation across the elixir ecosystem is pretty good, I find. I am way more comfortable in elixir ecosystem docs over python ecosystem docs.
- AlchemistCamp 4y ago
  The transitions from about half of the versions between 0.3 and 0.10 were worse for me. From 0.10 to 0.15 were smooth. 0.16 was tied to phx 1.6, which made it worse again, but I didn’t find it that bad. 0.16 to 0.18 has been mostly okay again, but I’ve seen bugs introduced into an app just by adding IDs to HTML elements with a phx-hook on them. This is a problem since heex templates enforce that each hook does have an ID. It’s also strange that a totally new ID never used elsewhere in the app would break existing JS interop, but it does and it’s what I’ll be working on this week so we can continue upgrading… Not sure what it’s going to be like upgrading to Phoenix 1.7, but I think it’s going to be a major undertaking and unfortunately most my Phoenix-related screencasts will become obsolete. Elixir itself and Ecto have been really stable, though.

weatherlite 4y ago

> If React or the JavaScript du jour isn’t already your horse in the race, If only it were up to us simple devs who actually do the work. But its not. CTOs make the decisions and they bring in tech that "everyone else" is using. That means Java/Node/Python/C#/ and Angular/React is probably 90% of web code out there. I can try fighting the trend and specifically apply to niche tech jobs but its no fun...been doing that with Ruby for awhile until jobs literally dried up where I live. If you live in a remote friendly area (big parts of Europe) you can get by .. but I don't.

tifadg1 4y ago

As someone completely new to js world, I've started learning nextjs and for hobby projects atleast I've come to the conclusion that negative opinions about js are overblown - yes theres not one dominating framework, but that's how innovation is born. Plus they're all about dev experience - you don't have to migrate if you're happy with what you've got. Controversially I'm also pleased about breaking changes if it means things get significantly better and there's less legacy to deal with. All in all a fast-paced ecosystem for a fast-paced world. I did seriously give it a try with elixir but felt I wouldn't appreciate it without dealing with js first, so it'll be something if I ever outraged with js, but between typescript, nextjs, jsx templates and all the excellent vscode tooling I'm happy. Infact much happier than dealing with Django's black magic.

tartoran 4y ago

How’s the job market for elixir? It seems a lot of stacks are popular due to their employability.

lawik 4y ago
Not as straight forward as the massive languages as the pool of developers and work are both smaller. But remote EU or US is not very hard if you have some experience (Elixir or in general). Junior positions are quite uncommon and seem to require some hustle on the networking side. Market seems to be cooling a bit for consulting (I do that) as the economy makes companies more careful. None of the highly motivated Elixir devs I know are struggling to find work. Consulting/contract clients has been trickier lately but not impossible. Source: I help companies connect with Elixir devs as a specialist recruiter. And I do contracting/consulting. Feel free to ask questions here or via contact through underjord.io