3 ms·

I don't understand people still hanging on to the fiction that Apple is some sort of bastion of privacy. Do they know that google pays Apple "an estimated $8-12

I don't understand people still hanging on to the fiction that Apple is some sort of bastion of privacy. Do they know that google pays Apple "an estimated $8-12 billion"[0] to be default search and as a result track almost all iPhone users' searches? If that's not "selling your data" I don't know what is. [0]https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-search-antitrust.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/technology/apple-google-s...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
phendrenad2 4y ago
This is like complaining that your soundproof apartment isn't giving you the right level of privacy because when you stand on a soapbox in the town square and shout "I wear pink underwear" everyone knows what color your underwear are. If you want privacy, why not, you know, use the privacy features? (Like chat messages, which are NOT sent to Google).
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  I'm not sure you thought this through... Apple does not care about your privacy if they are willing to sell it for $12 Billion. I don't have an iPhone, and I never complained about them. To be honest, it's not clear that you even read my message at all. For context, I wrote that comment in a different thread and it got moved here: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33527500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33527500
  - phendrenad2 4y ago
    Who is Apple selling your data to for $12 billion?
derwiki 4y ago
I have an iPhone and don’t use Google search (I’m not logged in to any Google services actually, unless Apple Mail loading Gmail counts) so I’m pretty sure Google is not tracking _all_ users’ searches.
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  Yes, you are right. Additionaly, chinese users are not using google, although they are certainly being tracked. I've added the word "almost" into my comment. So it now reads: >google pays Apple "an estimated $8-12 billion"[0] to be default search and as a result track almost all iPhone users' searches
  - derwiki 4y ago
    Appreciate the update!
heywoodlh 4y ago
Disclaimer: happy iOS and Android user -- I like both platforms and think both have strengths and weaknesses. Mostly a Linux user on desktop. > Do they know that google pays Apple... to be default search This statement comes off a bit ironic in the fact that you are pointing out a deal that Apple has with Google -- the current steward over Android -- as a reason that Apple isn't a bastion for privacy. This irony highlights the fact that one is often worse-off from a privacy perspective in using Android -- the main competitor to iOS -- because it is built with Google as a first party. I absolutely agree that there is an exaggeration of privacy with Apple. But in most cases, iOS does actually do privacy better than Android. Private Relay, App Tracking Transparency and Google not being a first-party in the development in the Operating System are things that come to mind. Additionally, according to a research paper done in 2021, Google collects around 20x more data (around 1+ TB every 12 hours) on Android compared to iOS (around 6 GB)[0]. Even if the methodology behind the paper wasn't perfect (which Google claims) I don't think anyone would be surprised that Google collects more information than Apple. My opinion is that the sweet spot for privacy on a mobile device is to buy a Pixel (for the great hardware security benefits) and go with a custom, de-Googled ROM like CalyxOS and try to use F-Droid for all your apps. For those who are even more hardcore, GrapheneOS is awesome. In my opinion, stock Android is far worse for privacy than iOS simply because of Google's first-party influence. And then if you go with a vendor like Samsung you not only have Google as a first party on your mobile device but also Samsung. The only option left if you want more privacy on mobile than an iPhone is to either flash a de-Googled ROM, like I said earlier, or to go with some sort of Linux distribution on mobile -- both of those alternatives come with huge downsides. (Sorry for the rant, I always find this topic interesting) [0] https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  I never said Google or android protect users privacy. Android violating users privacy is not to the exclusion of Apple doing the same even if to a lesser extent. Everyone knows how bad android is this respect. Yet there is this idea that Apple does care about users' privacy, and won't sell users' data, with apple themselves saying things like: >Your personal data should always be protected on your device and never shared without your permission. So we build encryption, on-device intelligence, and other tools into our products to let you share what you want on your terms.[0] and >In iOS 11 and macOS High Sierra, we introduced Intelligent Tracking Prevention. You may have noticed that when you look at something to buy online, you suddenly start seeing it everywhere else you go on the web. This happens when a third party tracks cookies and other website data to feed you ads across various websites. Intelligent Tracking Prevention uses the latest in machine learning and on-device intelligence to reduce this cross-site tracking. It works by separating the third-party content used to track you from other browsing data, so what you look at on the web remains your business — not an advertiser’s. This second statement, even if technically true, is incredibly disingenuous and misleading in light of the fact that typing anything that is not a URL into the safari search bar will by default cause tracking. _That's_ the issue here. "We don't sell your data, we just sell you to somone else that does" [0]https://www.apple.com/ge/privacy/approach-to-privacy/ https://www.apple.com/ge/privacy/approach-to-privacy/

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

phendrenad2 4y ago

This is like complaining that your soundproof apartment isn't giving you the right level of privacy because when you stand on a soapbox in the town square and shout "I wear pink underwear" everyone knows what color your underwear are. If you want privacy, why not, you know, use the privacy features? (Like chat messages, which are NOT sent to Google).

Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
I'm not sure you thought this through... Apple does not care about your privacy if they are willing to sell it for $12 Billion. I don't have an iPhone, and I never complained about them. To be honest, it's not clear that you even read my message at all. For context, I wrote that comment in a different thread and it got moved here: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33527500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33527500
- phendrenad2 4y ago
  Who is Apple selling your data to for $12 billion?

derwiki 4y ago

I have an iPhone and don’t use Google search (I’m not logged in to any Google services actually, unless Apple Mail loading Gmail counts) so I’m pretty sure Google is not tracking _all_ users’ searches.

Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
Yes, you are right. Additionaly, chinese users are not using google, although they are certainly being tracked. I've added the word "almost" into my comment. So it now reads: >google pays Apple "an estimated $8-12 billion"[0] to be default search and as a result track almost all iPhone users' searches
- derwiki 4y ago
  Appreciate the update!

heywoodlh 4y ago

Disclaimer: happy iOS and Android user -- I like both platforms and think both have strengths and weaknesses. Mostly a Linux user on desktop. > Do they know that google pays Apple... to be default search This statement comes off a bit ironic in the fact that you are pointing out a deal that Apple has with Google -- the current steward over Android -- as a reason that Apple isn't a bastion for privacy. This irony highlights the fact that one is often worse-off from a privacy perspective in using Android -- the main competitor to iOS -- because it is built with Google as a first party. I absolutely agree that there is an exaggeration of privacy with Apple. But in most cases, iOS does actually do privacy better than Android. Private Relay, App Tracking Transparency and Google not being a first-party in the development in the Operating System are things that come to mind. Additionally, according to a research paper done in 2021, Google collects around 20x more data (around 1+ TB every 12 hours) on Android compared to iOS (around 6 GB)[0]. Even if the methodology behind the paper wasn't perfect (which Google claims) I don't think anyone would be surprised that Google collects more information than Apple. My opinion is that the sweet spot for privacy on a mobile device is to buy a Pixel (for the great hardware security benefits) and go with a custom, de-Googled ROM like CalyxOS and try to use F-Droid for all your apps. For those who are even more hardcore, GrapheneOS is awesome. In my opinion, stock Android is far worse for privacy than iOS simply because of Google's first-party influence. And then if you go with a vendor like Samsung you not only have Google as a first party on your mobile device but also Samsung. The only option left if you want more privacy on mobile than an iPhone is to either flash a de-Googled ROM, like I said earlier, or to go with some sort of Linux distribution on mobile -- both of those alternatives come with huge downsides. (Sorry for the rant, I always find this topic interesting) [0] https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf

Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
I never said Google or android protect users privacy. Android violating users privacy is not to the exclusion of Apple doing the same even if to a lesser extent. Everyone knows how bad android is this respect. Yet there is this idea that Apple does care about users' privacy, and won't sell users' data, with apple themselves saying things like: >Your personal data should always be protected on your device and never shared without your permission. So we build encryption, on-device intelligence, and other tools into our products to let you share what you want on your terms.[0] and >In iOS 11 and macOS High Sierra, we introduced Intelligent Tracking Prevention. You may have noticed that when you look at something to buy online, you suddenly start seeing it everywhere else you go on the web. This happens when a third party tracks cookies and other website data to feed you ads across various websites. Intelligent Tracking Prevention uses the latest in machine learning and on-device intelligence to reduce this cross-site tracking. It works by separating the third-party content used to track you from other browsing data, so what you look at on the web remains your business — not an advertiser’s. This second statement, even if technically true, is incredibly disingenuous and misleading in light of the fact that typing anything that is not a URL into the safari search bar will by default cause tracking. _That's_ the issue here. "We don't sell your data, we just sell you to somone else that does" [0]https://www.apple.com/ge/privacy/approach-to-privacy/ https://www.apple.com/ge/privacy/approach-to-privacy/