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If a potential employer really thinks that about all Twitter employees, you don’t want to work there. SV-style companies are going through a typical cycle wher

by pevey 4y ago

If a potential employer really thinks that about all Twitter employees, you don’t want to work there. SV-style companies are going through a typical cycle where the money was cheap and flowed freely, and now it does not. So those companies are adjusting. Sure as rain, we will come full circle again, eventually. In the meantime… Having lived in the Bay Area a few years, but having spent most of my life and most of my career outside of it, I can tell you that tech in general is not downsizing. It can seem that way if you are based in SV or in a VC-funded company. “Boring businesses” are still hungry for good tech talent. Those companies might actually be profitable and even have a long track record of being profitable. Consider a short tour of duty to see what comes of some time at one of those companies. As fair warning, these companies can be unfriendly to tech outsiders who charge in and think they know better how to run their businesses (see mention of long-term profits). So maybe that is where an idea of bias against Twitter employees comes from. But this is just about personal mindset. Most of these companies would very much like to bring on more tech talent with the right attitude to help them modernize. Best of luck to all who are looking. Stay positive, and consider expanding your search horizon. Many industries have low-hanging fruit for people with the right skills, and you could make a real difference. It doesn’t mean you have to stay forever.

Dingo24 4y ago
I wouldn't say everybody thinks that way, but as an employee of what you referred to as a "boring business", I wouldn't want to hire any of these folks due to the fear that they have a mindset like you. At least not for any sort of senior role. We are profitable and have been for nearly 100 years precisely because we don't have the same perspective on "modernization" that many not boring SV companies have. We've been burned enough hiring folks who would end up refusing to give any effort the minute they found out they would be responsible for adding small features to systems that have been in production for 20 years (we inform them of this, but they generally think they will be able to impress us of their genius and get us to change our mind). Or they refuse to adhere to processes that they falsely believe to be outdated, or they suck at anything that isn't JavaScript/Web, or constantly try to expand requirements in the direction of vanity efforts. Additionally, everybody I've ever met from these places almost universally think they are hotshots that ought to immediately be given senior level salaries and responsibilities due to prior experience at a tech company. Sorry, but at real businesses that actually make money and have survived dire economic circumstances in the past, it doesn't work like that. I'm sure there are exceptions, and certainly there are plenty of actual hotshots at companies like Google. But they are generally hotshots at things that boring businesses don't need. We will never in a million years have any reason whatsoever to implement Kubernetes. Sorry. As of right now, we prefer to hire from other similarly boring businesses, or train up from entry level IT positions, or hire directly from local colleges.
- dylan604 4y ago
  It sounds to me like you and the GP are in somewhat of agreement. You're both saying that SV techs coming to some non-SV well established company might not be a good fit. You state a couple of reasons, and one of them supports the GP you're attempting to disagree with. You: Additionally, everybody I've ever met from these places almost universally think they are hotshots GP: As fair warning, these companies can be unfriendly to tech outsiders who charge in and think they know better
  - Dingo24 4y ago
    Yes you are correct, I generally agree with some of the points made, where I disagree is that we would want help modernizing. Unless the modern solution provides some kind of cost reduction or feature improvement that I can sell to my boss (which is rare), then it simply isn't going to happen unless you are a designer or working completely on the front end. To be honest, that may be a good place to look for ex tech workers at my company, but I wouldn't know since I'm way deep in the backend. I don't think that Twitter employees are necessarily lazy or like to "rest and vest". I just think the kind of work they are expecting and culture difference is often an insurmountable obstacle. As for what others have asked, we generally max out on salary at around $200k for very senior contributor roles. For a fresh college grad then we are more than competitive for the area at around $70k-$80k. Like I said, we aren't a SV company, and we will not match a SV salary. But we are very competitive for the area, and its not an undesirable area either. If you do a COL adjustment it probably roughly evens out.
    - pevey 4y ago
      Just to be clear, I'm not trying to insult anyone at a boring business. I work in insurance, one of the most boring of the boring businesses. I happen to like it. And I don't mind saying that the industry needs to and wants to modernize. We are short on the talent to get it done, although that is slowly changing.
      - Dingo24 4y ago
andrew_ 4y ago
I don't think that's a fair take. A lot of people don't want to hire activists for roles that aren't activist roles.
- denkmoon 4y ago
  Why would you think that working at twitter makes someone an activist?
  - andrew_ 4y ago
    One would have to be blissfully ignorant or uninformed about Twitter to think the majority were not. The bios tell the story. The internal activist groups within the company prior to acquisition tell the story. The tweets from the employees tell the story. I'm personally aware of a handful of peers from Twitter that aren't, but as they'll tell anyone - they're the minority.

by pevey 4y ago

Dingo24 4y ago

I wouldn't say everybody thinks that way, but as an employee of what you referred to as a "boring business", I wouldn't want to hire any of these folks due to the fear that they have a mindset like you. At least not for any sort of senior role. We are profitable and have been for nearly 100 years precisely because we don't have the same perspective on "modernization" that many not boring SV companies have. We've been burned enough hiring folks who would end up refusing to give any effort the minute they found out they would be responsible for adding small features to systems that have been in production for 20 years (we inform them of this, but they generally think they will be able to impress us of their genius and get us to change our mind). Or they refuse to adhere to processes that they falsely believe to be outdated, or they suck at anything that isn't JavaScript/Web, or constantly try to expand requirements in the direction of vanity efforts. Additionally, everybody I've ever met from these places almost universally think they are hotshots that ought to immediately be given senior level salaries and responsibilities due to prior experience at a tech company. Sorry, but at real businesses that actually make money and have survived dire economic circumstances in the past, it doesn't work like that. I'm sure there are exceptions, and certainly there are plenty of actual hotshots at companies like Google. But they are generally hotshots at things that boring businesses don't need. We will never in a million years have any reason whatsoever to implement Kubernetes. Sorry. As of right now, we prefer to hire from other similarly boring businesses, or train up from entry level IT positions, or hire directly from local colleges.

dylan604 4y ago
It sounds to me like you and the GP are in somewhat of agreement. You're both saying that SV techs coming to some non-SV well established company might not be a good fit. You state a couple of reasons, and one of them supports the GP you're attempting to disagree with. You: Additionally, everybody I've ever met from these places almost universally think they are hotshots GP: As fair warning, these companies can be unfriendly to tech outsiders who charge in and think they know better
- Dingo24 4y ago
  Yes you are correct, I generally agree with some of the points made, where I disagree is that we would want help modernizing. Unless the modern solution provides some kind of cost reduction or feature improvement that I can sell to my boss (which is rare), then it simply isn't going to happen unless you are a designer or working completely on the front end. To be honest, that may be a good place to look for ex tech workers at my company, but I wouldn't know since I'm way deep in the backend. I don't think that Twitter employees are necessarily lazy or like to "rest and vest". I just think the kind of work they are expecting and culture difference is often an insurmountable obstacle. As for what others have asked, we generally max out on salary at around $200k for very senior contributor roles. For a fresh college grad then we are more than competitive for the area at around $70k-$80k. Like I said, we aren't a SV company, and we will not match a SV salary. But we are very competitive for the area, and its not an undesirable area either. If you do a COL adjustment it probably roughly evens out.
  - pevey 4y ago
    Just to be clear, I'm not trying to insult anyone at a boring business. I work in insurance, one of the most boring of the boring businesses. I happen to like it. And I don't mind saying that the industry needs to and wants to modernize. We are short on the talent to get it done, although that is slowly changing.
    - Dingo24 4y ago

andrew_ 4y ago

I don't think that's a fair take. A lot of people don't want to hire activists for roles that aren't activist roles.

denkmoon 4y ago
Why would you think that working at twitter makes someone an activist?
- andrew_ 4y ago
  One would have to be blissfully ignorant or uninformed about Twitter to think the majority were not. The bios tell the story. The internal activist groups within the company prior to acquisition tell the story. The tweets from the employees tell the story. I'm personally aware of a handful of peers from Twitter that aren't, but as they'll tell anyone - they're the minority.