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Dishonesty is defined here as "1) saying that something that is untrue, and 2) saying it with the intent to mislead the other person.". There's a third part "3
by gizmo 15y ago
Dishonesty is defined here as "1) saying that something that is untrue, and 2) saying it with the intent to mislead the other person.".
There's a third part "3) when the person expects you to be truthful". When you make a statement with the intent to mislead somebody but the person is fully aware that he is being mislead, there is no dishonesty. Magicians and illusionists deceive people who expect to be deceived, so that's OK. Same for CEOs and politicians: people are fully aware that words they use are chosen very carefully.
The first part, that a statement must be untrue in order to be dishonest is unneeded, I think. It's irrelevant whether you say something that's true or untrue, what matters is whether the audience is going to form a belief that is correct or not. For instance it's easy to lie to people by phrasing a statement with a triple negation. Few people parse triple negations properly.
The kindle single "Lying" (20 pages; $2 or so), by Sam Harris argues really well in favor of total and completely honesty (but not unnecessary rudeness). He defines lying as "to intentionally mislead others when they expect honest communication", which is the best definition I've come across.
- oconnor0 15y agoI disagree with your assessment of CEOs and politicians. For me, at least, it's because I've seen them lie so many times over so long that I no longer really trust what they say. I expected & would like to expect they tell the truth. In other words, I still "expect" honest communication from CEOs and politicians and am frustrated by their lying.
- mdc 15y agoI agree. We tend to accept lies from politicians because they "always" lie and we don't expect otherwise. But understanding that this is the practical reality at the moment doesn't mean it should be acceptable. We should push back and expect more. Every time someone repeats the lie that lying politicians are expected and accepted, they're helping make the lie true. Stop it.
- gizmo 15y agoI completely disagree. For every voter with an IQ of 120 we have a voter with an IQ of 80. For every voter with an IQ of 130 we have a voter with an IQ of 70. There is a huge part of the population that cannot be persuaded with argument or reason. But the problem isn't just that the majority is uneducated or unintelligent. It's also about the team dynamics that are at play here. The moment you answer a question "incorrectly", you become the enemy in the eye of the voter: somebody from the other team. It betrays weakness. This is why so many politicians are completely unable to concede a single point, even when it's completely obvious they're wrong, even when conceding the point wouldn't damage the strength of their argument. The rules political rhetoric are simple: disagree with all arguments and facts of those you oppose and never ever ever admit you're wrong. The moment you say you made a mistake your opponents will mercilessly use it against you and your supporters will perceive you as weak. The whole political game is not fact based and never has been, in no country at no point in history. It's about teams. And people want their team to WIN, facts be damned.
- thebigshane 15y agoPerhaps there are legitimate reasons for lying (we can save that for a separate thread). But it's still lying. I would argue that lying has nothing to do with expectations. Magicians and comedians lie, but we are okay with it and we (hopefully) don't believe those statements. We just get our chuckles and forget about them. Many (not all) people expect politicians and other leaders to lie. And like you said, maybe we need them to lie, maybe the world is better for it. And I am sure there are plenty of politically correct terms to use for those instances instead of lying. But if the statement is false, then it is false. It doesn't matter how the recipient of the message interprets it, that's their problem.
- cicero 15y agoIt sounds like you're saying honesty in government is incompatible with democracy. That sounds like a problem with democracy to me.
- graysnorf 15y agoThe difference being that the magician deceives you for your own benefit and at your request. Though the CEO and politician deceive you (or lie with the intent to deceive), you didn't ask them to.