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I think your comment actually supports the original comment. If what's at stake is a $60M javascript photo-sharing app, then you gotta decide how much you care

I think your comment actually supports the original comment. If what's at stake is a $60M javascript photo-sharing app, then you gotta decide how much you care to massage egos and play the game. If you're literally putting human lives at risk and you think there's a real chance of death, what a petty thing to say, "Oh well they should've just listened! It's a high-stakes game!" Do be clear, this doesn't shift the responsibility but it just reinforces that if you want to just raise a stink—do it however you think best. If you want to communicate effectively, you must play by the laws of human ego. Plain and simple. People always underestimate the allure of human ego and pride.

peteradio 4y ago
What a horrible truth, hate to upvote but you may be right. But why is it engineers who must rise to the political occasion?
- vaidhy 4y ago
  Everyone should rise to the political occasion. Why is that the engineers should not rise? Politics is how we solve problems without resorting to fists.
  - peteradio 4y ago
    Engineering is the engineers domain. If engineers are expected to puppet master the managers then what is the point of the manager?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - thefaux 4y ago
      > what is the point of the manager? exactly
    - _carbyau_ 4y ago
      Once you are a Manager, you are NOT an engineer. If Engineers don't like Managers-with-no-Engineering-background, then Engineers should try to fill the Manager role from their own ranks. Otherwise, what else do you expect will happen? Like a lot of things, you won't win if you are not in the race. Having said that, having an Ex-Engineer as a manager doesn't guarantee anything. You need the right ExEngineer - a person who can manage!
- jimmaswell 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wason_selection_task https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wason_selection_task STEM people will naturally succeed at this task immediately, while an average person, like a koala unable to understand a leaf is food unless it's put on a tree, can only answer the logic problem if it's phrased in terms of social rules. The STEM people's brains tended to develop in a way that intuitively understands logic in a more abstract way, better able to understand reality, not just monkey hierarchies. So they will be averse to politics because it's boring, frustrating, disingenuous monkey shit flinging. But they're the most qualified, because they're more likely to put truth and fairness above tribal enrichment and games. If engineers more often made the sacrifice to waste their brainpower dive into that swamp, we'd have colonized space and solved hunger etc. by now. But I can't blame them for not wanting to deal with it.
  - WindyLakeReturn 4y ago
    Aren't the images in that wikipedia link misleading? In the original case, you have the following statement: If even, then red. You also have 4 cards, 3, 8, red brown. So two numbers that relate to the if side and two colors that relate to the then side. In the second picture, you have the statement: If drinking alcohol, then >=21. You also have 4 chards. 16, 25, soda, beer. So two numbers that correlate to the then side and 2 drinks that correlate to the if side. But the way they arrange and color code the cards makes people associate the drinks with the colors and the ages with the numbers, which is mixing up the if and then. Granted, this isn't a problem in the text explanation, but could lead to further confusion by someone trying to create associations between drink alcohol status and color when it is really drink alcohol status and even/odd. Unrelated to my the rest of my comment, I found that despite having what I would consider a very logical brain, I did have a much simpler time solving the drinking problem than the original one. I reach a satisfactory conclusion in each, but the drinking one felt more natural and intuitive while the original problem included a pause and double checking my logic. I would like to be tested on social rules that aren't part of my current social context to see if that played a roll in this specific instance (the article says there is evidence that the effect persists even when the rules aren't part of the existing culture, but that is a general trend and may not apply to specific instances).
  - 4y ago
- blitz_skull 4y ago
  I'd argue anyone who wants to be successful, in any arena, must rise to these occasions. I'd also argue they're less political and more empathetic opportunities. Most of us are really just 13 year olds emotionally, running around in 20+ year old bodies. All our insecurities and hurts are still there. The art of being able to address the mistake and the inner human who is just longing for love, simultaneously, without crippling either, is terrifyingly difficult.
SomeCallMeTim 4y ago
The original comment says "a 12 month delay isn't a solution, it's a problem." But sometimes there is no solution other than recognizing that it will take longer. Or at least not with the current team. And yes, that means telling everyone involved up to and including the CEO if necessary. The only other "solution" was clearly to quit, which they did. A $60M project with 200 people on it isn't going to be able to pivot to creating that photo-sharing app (or whatever) 12 months faster. It's unethical of the entire management team to not immediately go to the client and tell them that the project is seriously behind expectations, in fact, "career limiting move" or not. This is why outsourcing gets such a bad name. It's frequently run by unethical scammers who are just there to milk money out of clients.

peteradio 4y ago

What a horrible truth, hate to upvote but you may be right. But why is it engineers who must rise to the political occasion?

vaidhy 4y ago
Everyone should rise to the political occasion. Why is that the engineers should not rise? Politics is how we solve problems without resorting to fists.
- peteradio 4y ago
  Engineering is the engineers domain. If engineers are expected to puppet master the managers then what is the point of the manager?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - thefaux 4y ago
    > what is the point of the manager? exactly
  - _carbyau_ 4y ago
    Once you are a Manager, you are NOT an engineer. If Engineers don't like Managers-with-no-Engineering-background, then Engineers should try to fill the Manager role from their own ranks. Otherwise, what else do you expect will happen? Like a lot of things, you won't win if you are not in the race. Having said that, having an Ex-Engineer as a manager doesn't guarantee anything. You need the right ExEngineer - a person who can manage!
jimmaswell 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wason_selection_task https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wason_selection_task STEM people will naturally succeed at this task immediately, while an average person, like a koala unable to understand a leaf is food unless it's put on a tree, can only answer the logic problem if it's phrased in terms of social rules. The STEM people's brains tended to develop in a way that intuitively understands logic in a more abstract way, better able to understand reality, not just monkey hierarchies. So they will be averse to politics because it's boring, frustrating, disingenuous monkey shit flinging. But they're the most qualified, because they're more likely to put truth and fairness above tribal enrichment and games. If engineers more often made the sacrifice to waste their brainpower dive into that swamp, we'd have colonized space and solved hunger etc. by now. But I can't blame them for not wanting to deal with it.
- WindyLakeReturn 4y ago
  Aren't the images in that wikipedia link misleading? In the original case, you have the following statement: If even, then red. You also have 4 cards, 3, 8, red brown. So two numbers that relate to the if side and two colors that relate to the then side. In the second picture, you have the statement: If drinking alcohol, then >=21. You also have 4 chards. 16, 25, soda, beer. So two numbers that correlate to the then side and 2 drinks that correlate to the if side. But the way they arrange and color code the cards makes people associate the drinks with the colors and the ages with the numbers, which is mixing up the if and then. Granted, this isn't a problem in the text explanation, but could lead to further confusion by someone trying to create associations between drink alcohol status and color when it is really drink alcohol status and even/odd. Unrelated to my the rest of my comment, I found that despite having what I would consider a very logical brain, I did have a much simpler time solving the drinking problem than the original one. I reach a satisfactory conclusion in each, but the drinking one felt more natural and intuitive while the original problem included a pause and double checking my logic. I would like to be tested on social rules that aren't part of my current social context to see if that played a roll in this specific instance (the article says there is evidence that the effect persists even when the rules aren't part of the existing culture, but that is a general trend and may not apply to specific instances).
- 4y ago
blitz_skull 4y ago
I'd argue anyone who wants to be successful, in any arena, must rise to these occasions. I'd also argue they're less political and more empathetic opportunities. Most of us are really just 13 year olds emotionally, running around in 20+ year old bodies. All our insecurities and hurts are still there. The art of being able to address the mistake and the inner human who is just longing for love, simultaneously, without crippling either, is terrifyingly difficult.

SomeCallMeTim 4y ago

The original comment says "a 12 month delay isn't a solution, it's a problem." But sometimes there is no solution other than recognizing that it will take longer. Or at least not with the current team. And yes, that means telling everyone involved up to and including the CEO if necessary. The only other "solution" was clearly to quit, which they did. A $60M project with 200 people on it isn't going to be able to pivot to creating that photo-sharing app (or whatever) 12 months faster. It's unethical of the entire management team to not immediately go to the client and tell them that the project is seriously behind expectations, in fact, "career limiting move" or not. This is why outsourcing gets such a bad name. It's frequently run by unethical scammers who are just there to milk money out of clients.