4 ms·

> It's not fair to ask people for help and then complain about their word usage when trying to help. This is a situation where solicited advice was asked for.

> It's not fair to ask people for help and then complain about their word usage when trying to help. This is a situation where solicited advice was asked for. This is not wrong but it's not always useful. Being more kind in your language when giving help will carry your point across more clearly. Consider a junior engineer stressed out by deadlines -- sure, they should listen to you calmly and fix the problem, but it can be hard when you're not used to the right mindstate. A bit of finesse when choosing your words will go a long way. This goes the other way too -- ignoring when people use unnecessary language when giving help is for the best, even though in a perfect world they wouldn't. Communication is about being understood, not being fair. Giving a bit from your side to speak on terms the other side is more comfortable on is a great skill to have.

vsareto 4y ago
I agree with culling 'just' because it rarely adds clarity, but I don't get the emotional impact others are having when they hear it. This blog post is trying to establish that its use definitely means something bad and condescending, but I don't agree with it: >The word “just” is a signal that you’re not taking their problem seriously. It wants to use this (flawed imo) reason to make people feel guilty any time they use 'just'.
- potta_coffee 4y ago
  I think the issue is that sometimes the word is "just" filler, and sometimes it's intended to communicate the opinion that the problem is superficial and ought to be easily handled. The meaning is highly dependent on context and who is speaking.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > This blog post is trying to establish that its use definitely means something bad and condescending, but I don't agree with it: You don't need to. Just don't use it, and you'll be fine. (^This is an attempt to provide an illustrative example.)
m000z0rz 4y ago
> Communication is about being understood, not being fair. This is why in some cases it's better to say "Just" instead of trying to hide what you're trying to say in order to maybe be more sensitive without even knowing if that's necessary. For this situation, I tend to phrase it as "Can we just <x>"? which might be received better than "Just <x>", but "just" is an important word here - I want the other person to understand that I think this ought to be easy. If it's not, I probably want to know why, because that will give me more information about the problem and possible solutions.
- llbeansandrice 4y ago
  I feel like "just" is a huge source of resentment between engineers and non-technical managers/clients/etc. Can we "just" return true if the picture contains a bird?[0] [0] https://xkcd.com/1425/ https://xkcd.com/1425/
- asoneth 4y ago
  I think it depends on context. If "Can we just <x>" is coming from a trusted colleague who understands the problem space that is exciting because they may have found a shortcut or clever solution. If "Can we just <x>" is coming from a non-technical client or project manager then I feel nervous because in practice it often indicates that they have underestimated the scope of the problem or we have overestimated the scope of the problem. In some cases it is possible to have enough meetings to level-set expectations but in some cases the "just" seems to be a leading indicator of persistent project tension due to mismatched expectations.
vasco 4y ago
When I ask for help, I go with humility, it'd never cross my mind to get helped and then turn around to chastise someone based on their use of words, I care about if they helped me fix the problem or not. Is pragmatism dead?
- tristor 4y ago
  > Is pragmatism dead? Yes, unfortunately. Along with many other things. Our society has become socially hyper-conscious and that means that anything practical and in some cases observation of reality itself must be sacrificed on the alter of social consciousness.

vsareto 4y ago

I agree with culling 'just' because it rarely adds clarity, but I don't get the emotional impact others are having when they hear it. This blog post is trying to establish that its use definitely means something bad and condescending, but I don't agree with it: >The word “just” is a signal that you’re not taking their problem seriously. It wants to use this (flawed imo) reason to make people feel guilty any time they use 'just'.

potta_coffee 4y ago
I think the issue is that sometimes the word is "just" filler, and sometimes it's intended to communicate the opinion that the problem is superficial and ought to be easily handled. The meaning is highly dependent on context and who is speaking.
CharlesW 4y ago
> This blog post is trying to establish that its use definitely means something bad and condescending, but I don't agree with it: You don't need to. Just don't use it, and you'll be fine. (^This is an attempt to provide an illustrative example.)

m000z0rz 4y ago

> Communication is about being understood, not being fair. This is why in some cases it's better to say "Just" instead of trying to hide what you're trying to say in order to maybe be more sensitive without even knowing if that's necessary. For this situation, I tend to phrase it as "Can we just <x>"? which might be received better than "Just <x>", but "just" is an important word here - I want the other person to understand that I think this ought to be easy. If it's not, I probably want to know why, because that will give me more information about the problem and possible solutions.

llbeansandrice 4y ago
I feel like "just" is a huge source of resentment between engineers and non-technical managers/clients/etc. Can we "just" return true if the picture contains a bird?[0] [0] https://xkcd.com/1425/ https://xkcd.com/1425/
asoneth 4y ago
I think it depends on context. If "Can we just <x>" is coming from a trusted colleague who understands the problem space that is exciting because they may have found a shortcut or clever solution. If "Can we just <x>" is coming from a non-technical client or project manager then I feel nervous because in practice it often indicates that they have underestimated the scope of the problem or we have overestimated the scope of the problem. In some cases it is possible to have enough meetings to level-set expectations but in some cases the "just" seems to be a leading indicator of persistent project tension due to mismatched expectations.

vasco 4y ago

When I ask for help, I go with humility, it'd never cross my mind to get helped and then turn around to chastise someone based on their use of words, I care about if they helped me fix the problem or not. Is pragmatism dead?

tristor 4y ago
> Is pragmatism dead? Yes, unfortunately. Along with many other things. Our society has become socially hyper-conscious and that means that anything practical and in some cases observation of reality itself must be sacrificed on the alter of social consciousness.