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I'll also add that the anger of motorists towards cyclists rolling through stop signs is completely irrational when you take into consideration that approximate

I'll also add that the anger of motorists towards cyclists rolling through stop signs is completely irrational when you take into consideration that approximately 100% of motorists also run through almost all stop signs, so long as they aren't blocked by an other car. This twitter video exemplifies it pretty well https://twitter.com/toddnickel/status/1560358628707618816 https://twitter.com/toddnickel/status/1560358628707618816 We just take for granted that cars will blast through stop signs at a pretty high speed (maybe 10 - 20 km/h?). But when we see a cyclist do it, for some reason there seems to be some sort of optical or logical illusion that makes it stick out to us more. If you look at the speed these cars are going at, a lot of them are probably actually going at around the full cruising speed of a casual cyclist. So, considering most cyclists would actually slow down somewhat to roll through a stop sign, they're probably actually going faster. Oh the Urbanity! Recently had a great episode on this as well https://youtu.be/HT_KdFCVEdc https://youtu.be/HT_KdFCVEdc

_tom_ 4y ago
> We just take for granted that cars will blast through stop signs at a pretty high speed (maybe 10 - 20 km/h?) No, we don't. This doesn't happen, at least where I live. This sounds like a made up statistic, to justify bad behavior.
- joshlemer 4y ago
  How fast do you think the cars are going in the twitter video I posted?
  - manofmanysmiles 4y ago
    Where was that video taken? People certainly don’t behave like that everywhere I’ve lived (Massachusetts, California).
    - joshlemer 4y ago
      Vancouver area, Canada
      - manofmanysmiles 4y ago
        Fascinating, thanks for replying. For the record, I’ve seen plenty of bad behavior by people in cars, on bikes, and on foot everywhere I’ve lived, just not such a consistent flow past stop signs without stopping.
throw10920 4y ago
> when you take into consideration that approximately 100% of motorists also run through almost all stop signs Source, please. I live in an area where most people do this, but definitely nowhere close to 100% (not even "approximately" - maybe 80%). It's definitely inconsistent to both roll through stop signs and get mad at bicyclists, but that doesn't apply to those of us that actually follow traffic laws. (although, I get far more upset over motorists breaking traffic laws than bicyclists, with exceptions for the rare cases where bicyclists do risky things around me driving)
- joshlemer 4y ago
  > Source, please I linked to a video on Twitter of a totally normal intersection in the Vancouver area where I think every single car ran the sign if they were able to. This is completely normal road behaviour and could have been any stop sign anywhere in Canada. I have confirmed this by walking around my neighbourhood to various intersections, observing the same thing. The second video I linked to actually counted at multiple intersections in Ottawa and found about 90% of motorists run the stop sign. How many sources do you want? I don't think that whether the true number is closer to 90% or 100% takes anything away from my point that society incorrectly perceives cyclists as being especially lawless when it comes to stop signs.
  - throw10920 4y ago
    > How many sources do you want? You haven't given a single source, just lots of anecdata, for two intersections, over a tiny slice of time, in a country (Canada) that I don't live in and isn't related to the topic of discussion (which is the US).
    - joshlemer 4y ago
      Go watch the Urbanity video again. It wasn't 1 single intersection, it was a collection of intersections around Ottawa, with video evidence and everything. How is that "not a source"? Here's an other article that was like 5th google result of "how many people stop at stop signs". https://wtop.com/news/2013/08/wtops-stop-sign-experiment-how-many-people-make-a-complete-stop/ https://wtop.com/news/2013/08/wtops-stop-sign-experiment-how... Also, I'm calling you out as disingenuous. Everyone who has been through North America knows that practically everybody all the time rolls through stop signs. Do I need to provide a source that water is wet and the sky is blue?
ljf 4y ago
Totally this. I cycled for year in London - the amount of lorries, buses and taxi's that would sneak through when a light was turning/had turned red - blocking junctions and pedestrians from crossing safely at lights, I stopped to watch a police fishing campaign at a set of lights that a lot of cyclists went through - and had to physically go to the police to get them to intervene when motorists did the same - as they were ignoring them (mentality seemed to be 'we are here to ticket cyclists, anything else that happens today isn't my problem'). LOADS of people break the rules of the road, let's focus were the biggest risks and dangers are. That said, I haven't run a red on a bike for a very long time - I'd rather not give drivers any more reasons to be annoyed with cyclists.
willcipriano 4y ago
> anger of motorists towards cyclists Cyclists tend to be very letter of the law when it comes to the behavior of cars, then take a pragmatic approach to their own behavior when it suits them. If they were legalistic consistently they would stop at stop signs, if pragmatic they would keep the toys out of the road. Choosing one will draw less ire.
- joshlemer 4y ago
  There's nothing inconsistent about that. Cars are multi-thousand-pound multi-hundred-horsepower machines traveling at deadly speeds, with an ability to kill multiple people with a minor movement of the wrist. Someone riding on a bicycle going 22km/h has, without exaggeration, less than 1% of the momentum of a car going 60km/h, and 1/2500th the amount of power. They have orders of magnitude less capacity to cause harm to anyone. Appropriately, and reasonably, they bear a lot less responsibility on the road and can be a lot more flexible with the rules. Similarly, pedestrians have even less capacity to cause harm so they enjoy even more flexibility. On the other hand, semi trucks have more ability to cause harm and so have to contend with even stricter regulations, licensing etc. Commercial aircraft, stricter still. Traffic laws and infrastructure in North America are almost entirely put in place for the benefit of cars and ignore the existence of all other modes of transportation. I submit that the North American legal and physical environment are just flat out broken, unjust and illogical when it comes to cyclists (as well as pedestrians to an extent). It really is reasonable that someone on a bicycle should enjoy more flexibility than a 3 ton SUV. The fact people are so upset that cyclists would behave any differently than cars despite being completely different is a great achievement of motorists and the auto industry to manipulate our culture, to force everyone to navigate society on their terms for the benefit of cars, to the point of insanity. The fact that you refer to bicycles as "toys" reveals that the real issue you have with cyclists is not the bullshit story you present, where you pretend that cyclists doing the same exact thing as every motorist does - rolling through stop signs - presents some danger to society. You simply hate cyclists outright, you don't care about their safety, and think they don't deserve any space on the road at all. You just don't care about people who want to, or have to get around without a car. Your motivations are selfish and you should feel bad about yourself.
- 4y ago
Grim-444 4y ago
Are you seriously making the claim that nearly 100% of motorists run stop signs, and using a less than one minute long video of one specific intersection with less than 10 vehicles in it as some sort of proof? You're making a pretty bold claim about millions/billions of people.
- joshlemer 4y ago
  Did you see the second video I posted where they went around to different intersections and counted up over a longer period of time and found that approximately 90% of cars roll through? It also agrees with my observations. Since I realized this I've gone to many intersections in my city and watched and sure enough, just about every single car rolls through. So I have * a lifetime of experience as a driver, passenger, cyclist and pedestrian * explicit counting in multiple intersections near me * the video on twitter * the informal study on youtube which all agree. At what point do I have enough evidence to form a personal opinion for the sake of a hacker news comment?
- xracy 4y ago
  Where are you seeing that 100% claim? Also, something doesn't have to be 100% to be a problem. The point is, a lot of motorists do it, and it's more of a problem when they do.

_tom_ 4y ago

> We just take for granted that cars will blast through stop signs at a pretty high speed (maybe 10 - 20 km/h?) No, we don't. This doesn't happen, at least where I live. This sounds like a made up statistic, to justify bad behavior.

joshlemer 4y ago
How fast do you think the cars are going in the twitter video I posted?
- manofmanysmiles 4y ago
  Where was that video taken? People certainly don’t behave like that everywhere I’ve lived (Massachusetts, California).
  - joshlemer 4y ago
    Vancouver area, Canada
    - manofmanysmiles 4y ago
      Fascinating, thanks for replying. For the record, I’ve seen plenty of bad behavior by people in cars, on bikes, and on foot everywhere I’ve lived, just not such a consistent flow past stop signs without stopping.

throw10920 4y ago

> when you take into consideration that approximately 100% of motorists also run through almost all stop signs Source, please. I live in an area where most people do this, but definitely nowhere close to 100% (not even "approximately" - maybe 80%). It's definitely inconsistent to both roll through stop signs and get mad at bicyclists, but that doesn't apply to those of us that actually follow traffic laws. (although, I get far more upset over motorists breaking traffic laws than bicyclists, with exceptions for the rare cases where bicyclists do risky things around me driving)

joshlemer 4y ago
> Source, please I linked to a video on Twitter of a totally normal intersection in the Vancouver area where I think every single car ran the sign if they were able to. This is completely normal road behaviour and could have been any stop sign anywhere in Canada. I have confirmed this by walking around my neighbourhood to various intersections, observing the same thing. The second video I linked to actually counted at multiple intersections in Ottawa and found about 90% of motorists run the stop sign. How many sources do you want? I don't think that whether the true number is closer to 90% or 100% takes anything away from my point that society incorrectly perceives cyclists as being especially lawless when it comes to stop signs.
- throw10920 4y ago
  > How many sources do you want? You haven't given a single source, just lots of anecdata, for two intersections, over a tiny slice of time, in a country (Canada) that I don't live in and isn't related to the topic of discussion (which is the US).
  - joshlemer 4y ago
    Go watch the Urbanity video again. It wasn't 1 single intersection, it was a collection of intersections around Ottawa, with video evidence and everything. How is that "not a source"? Here's an other article that was like 5th google result of "how many people stop at stop signs". https://wtop.com/news/2013/08/wtops-stop-sign-experiment-how-many-people-make-a-complete-stop/ https://wtop.com/news/2013/08/wtops-stop-sign-experiment-how... Also, I'm calling you out as disingenuous. Everyone who has been through North America knows that practically everybody all the time rolls through stop signs. Do I need to provide a source that water is wet and the sky is blue?

ljf 4y ago

Totally this. I cycled for year in London - the amount of lorries, buses and taxi's that would sneak through when a light was turning/had turned red - blocking junctions and pedestrians from crossing safely at lights, I stopped to watch a police fishing campaign at a set of lights that a lot of cyclists went through - and had to physically go to the police to get them to intervene when motorists did the same - as they were ignoring them (mentality seemed to be 'we are here to ticket cyclists, anything else that happens today isn't my problem'). LOADS of people break the rules of the road, let's focus were the biggest risks and dangers are. That said, I haven't run a red on a bike for a very long time - I'd rather not give drivers any more reasons to be annoyed with cyclists.

willcipriano 4y ago

> anger of motorists towards cyclists Cyclists tend to be very letter of the law when it comes to the behavior of cars, then take a pragmatic approach to their own behavior when it suits them. If they were legalistic consistently they would stop at stop signs, if pragmatic they would keep the toys out of the road. Choosing one will draw less ire.

joshlemer 4y ago
There's nothing inconsistent about that. Cars are multi-thousand-pound multi-hundred-horsepower machines traveling at deadly speeds, with an ability to kill multiple people with a minor movement of the wrist. Someone riding on a bicycle going 22km/h has, without exaggeration, less than 1% of the momentum of a car going 60km/h, and 1/2500th the amount of power. They have orders of magnitude less capacity to cause harm to anyone. Appropriately, and reasonably, they bear a lot less responsibility on the road and can be a lot more flexible with the rules. Similarly, pedestrians have even less capacity to cause harm so they enjoy even more flexibility. On the other hand, semi trucks have more ability to cause harm and so have to contend with even stricter regulations, licensing etc. Commercial aircraft, stricter still. Traffic laws and infrastructure in North America are almost entirely put in place for the benefit of cars and ignore the existence of all other modes of transportation. I submit that the North American legal and physical environment are just flat out broken, unjust and illogical when it comes to cyclists (as well as pedestrians to an extent). It really is reasonable that someone on a bicycle should enjoy more flexibility than a 3 ton SUV. The fact people are so upset that cyclists would behave any differently than cars despite being completely different is a great achievement of motorists and the auto industry to manipulate our culture, to force everyone to navigate society on their terms for the benefit of cars, to the point of insanity. The fact that you refer to bicycles as "toys" reveals that the real issue you have with cyclists is not the bullshit story you present, where you pretend that cyclists doing the same exact thing as every motorist does - rolling through stop signs - presents some danger to society. You simply hate cyclists outright, you don't care about their safety, and think they don't deserve any space on the road at all. You just don't care about people who want to, or have to get around without a car. Your motivations are selfish and you should feel bad about yourself.
4y ago

Grim-444 4y ago

Are you seriously making the claim that nearly 100% of motorists run stop signs, and using a less than one minute long video of one specific intersection with less than 10 vehicles in it as some sort of proof? You're making a pretty bold claim about millions/billions of people.

joshlemer 4y ago
Did you see the second video I posted where they went around to different intersections and counted up over a longer period of time and found that approximately 90% of cars roll through? It also agrees with my observations. Since I realized this I've gone to many intersections in my city and watched and sure enough, just about every single car rolls through. So I have * a lifetime of experience as a driver, passenger, cyclist and pedestrian * explicit counting in multiple intersections near me * the video on twitter * the informal study on youtube which all agree. At what point do I have enough evidence to form a personal opinion for the sake of a hacker news comment?
xracy 4y ago
Where are you seeing that 100% claim? Also, something doesn't have to be 100% to be a problem. The point is, a lot of motorists do it, and it's more of a problem when they do.