5 ms·

Specifically in response to the time gaps: it's true that time gaps are bad, but keep in mind these are startups, which means they're juggling about twenty thou

Specifically in response to the time gaps: it's true that time gaps are bad, but keep in mind these are startups, which means they're juggling about twenty thousand different things at the same time. I think in that domain in particular, some slack may be in order as compared to a 20,000-strong corporation with a dedicated HR department. Re: weird extra steps: the idea isn't that they're cool. The idea is that if you are willing to attempt it and solve it successfully, it says something about your problem-solving skills. It's not the be-all end-all, but it seems like a decent first-pass filter. Re: cultural mismatch: if it's a cultural mismatch, you probably shouldn't apply anyway. The thing about a startup is, there are five or ten of you. This isn't just another job. You generally don't just come in at 9, work work work, maybe take lunch with your teammates, and trip it out at 5. You don't just attend the company Christmas party. A startup is typically very much like a family, because everything is riding on everyone. When someone quits IBM, the teammates write it off as a “whatever”. When someone quits at a startup, you spend some serious time looking around to make sure there's nothing scaring them off, because every individual counts a great deal. In short, culture is critical, and even as a married father of two, signing up for a startup is signing up for a culture and a tight-knit group of friends as much as it is signing up for a job.

steverb 15y ago
I don't know about IBM, but I have worked in several large well established companies and when someone (decent) quits everyone looks around to figure out WTF is going on. I have lived through 2 mass exoduses, where a company started going downhill and the top 50% of developers all leave within 6 months of each other (often in groups). There is nothing inherently special about a startup. Many established companies have make or break projects, and working on them requires the same sort of commitment. In short, don't take shit off of potential employers. If they can't get it together enough to get back to you and treat you with whatever level of respect you expect, then that's a sign that you probably don't want to work there.
- shadowfiend 15y ago
  That's actually fair. After I walked away from the keyboard I realized I was probably unfair to larger corporations. That said, I feel like someone leaving a 5-person company is usually a bigger deal than someone leaving a 20-person team in a 20,000 strong company. Would you disagree?
  - steverb 15y ago
    If you work as part of a twenty member team, then for most purposes that team is the company to you. Everyone else in the company is more or less outsourced services to your team. But you're right, it is a bigger deal.
  - travem 15y ago
    At the company level I think you are right, at the team level if feels similar (at least in my experience). I guess I will caveat that by saying that the teams where I worked were well established units who worked closely on the same projects together. In companies where the teams are constantly rearranged I imagine there is more of a disconnect from you colleagues.
kls 15y ago
It's not the be-all end-all, but it seems like a decent first-pass filter. It is really not, I have been round and round about this with every organization that I have been in that does these. The only thing it displays is the persons ability to answer trivia and solve puzzles. These are not the characteristics of a great developer, the characteristics of a great developer are simplicity, creativity and rapidly adaptation. You would be better off handing them a paint brush and a canvas and using that as a measure of their creativity. If that seems like a weird concept, then you start to get a picture of how far off these trivia puzzles are, they are literally of no value, not only that they can filter out the best candidates and worse yet they make a company seem like a bunch of elitist that think they are smarter than the average bear.
- shadowfiend 15y ago
  Good to hear the input, actually. I haven't personally used the puzzle, I was just saying it seemed like a decent filter. Obviously I was wrong in my perception :)
  - kls 15y ago
    Sure I was not trying to represent it as your view, just trying to highlight the deceptively simple but flawed reasoning in this hiring practice. People believe that because logic is involved having a trick logic puzzle will filter out bad candidates, but given the nature of development there are other more important qualities of a candidate such as creativity that are not tested and are not displayed in a logic puzzle. So you may filter out a guy that is not real strong on logic but is extremely creative. The creative guy is more important in 90% of the tech jobs out there, and further you only need one person strong on logic in the team because he can be consulted for tough logic, the creative guy cant be leaned on in the same manner to make the non-creative creative. The logic guy can't go to the creative guy and say hey give me a hand with being creative. I believe Google hiring practices that favor these kind of logic puzzles is one of the reasons they have had such an issue innovating in the market place. An overwhelming focus on hiring the technically smartest guy in the room, by nature filters out the most creative guys in the room (it's a right brain, left brain thing). The trick is finding the guy that is right in the middle of the two.
mason55 15y ago
Re: weird extra steps: the idea isn't that they're cool. The idea is that if you are willing to attempt it and solve it successfully, it says something about your problem-solving skills. It's not the be-all end-all, but it seems like a decent first-pass filter. The problem is that you're asking candidates to spend 1+ hour before you've even given them a personal response. I've seen positions with well known companies who ask you to do 4+ hours of work before they even talk to you in person. Imagine if every company did that?
- jarek 15y ago
  I've had a company give me a written hour-long (easy) test followed by a several-hour-long coding assignment without contact from anyone technical. (Both administered by a secretary/office manager - I appreciate them tons but not when I'm trying to get a sense for your technical organization.) Sorry, I don't think so.
- MartinCron 15y ago
  I fought really hard to keep my hiring process from requiring a time intensive hoop for candidates to jump through. I felt that it would put off all but the most desperate. Desperate isn't what I was looking for.
  - mason55 15y ago
    The people who have time for an 8 hour coding puzzle are the people who aren't doing anything else with their time.
  - gaius 15y ago
    Indeed. I have a blog and some code on GitHub. Admittedly neither of them have been updated in a couple of month, but they're there, and if anyone wants to know about my abilities or style, they can go look. Solve a puzzle? Don't waste my time.
up_and_up 15y ago
"You generally don't just come in at 9, work work work, maybe take lunch with your teammates, and trip it out at 5" and "signing up for a startup is signing up for a culture" Who said anything about 9-5? I previously worked at a fast-paced startup for 2 years, which is well represented on my resume. I have a good idea what I am in for.
- shadowfiend 15y ago
  Fair enough. But it seems like at that point it should be clear that a culture fit is part of the qualification when you're looking for a “qualified developer”, no?
pnathan 15y ago
I'm not going to go out and solve project euler style problems for a company unless they are paying me. My time has value, and asking me to give away hours of it on the hope of an interview is not really acceptable. I'd rather find an open source project and submit patches instead... that IMO has a lot more to do with what I'd be doing at a company anyway.

steverb 15y ago

I don't know about IBM, but I have worked in several large well established companies and when someone (decent) quits everyone looks around to figure out WTF is going on. I have lived through 2 mass exoduses, where a company started going downhill and the top 50% of developers all leave within 6 months of each other (often in groups). There is nothing inherently special about a startup. Many established companies have make or break projects, and working on them requires the same sort of commitment. In short, don't take shit off of potential employers. If they can't get it together enough to get back to you and treat you with whatever level of respect you expect, then that's a sign that you probably don't want to work there.

shadowfiend 15y ago
That's actually fair. After I walked away from the keyboard I realized I was probably unfair to larger corporations. That said, I feel like someone leaving a 5-person company is usually a bigger deal than someone leaving a 20-person team in a 20,000 strong company. Would you disagree?
- steverb 15y ago
  If you work as part of a twenty member team, then for most purposes that team is the company to you. Everyone else in the company is more or less outsourced services to your team. But you're right, it is a bigger deal.
- travem 15y ago
  At the company level I think you are right, at the team level if feels similar (at least in my experience). I guess I will caveat that by saying that the teams where I worked were well established units who worked closely on the same projects together. In companies where the teams are constantly rearranged I imagine there is more of a disconnect from you colleagues.

kls 15y ago

It's not the be-all end-all, but it seems like a decent first-pass filter. It is really not, I have been round and round about this with every organization that I have been in that does these. The only thing it displays is the persons ability to answer trivia and solve puzzles. These are not the characteristics of a great developer, the characteristics of a great developer are simplicity, creativity and rapidly adaptation. You would be better off handing them a paint brush and a canvas and using that as a measure of their creativity. If that seems like a weird concept, then you start to get a picture of how far off these trivia puzzles are, they are literally of no value, not only that they can filter out the best candidates and worse yet they make a company seem like a bunch of elitist that think they are smarter than the average bear.

shadowfiend 15y ago
Good to hear the input, actually. I haven't personally used the puzzle, I was just saying it seemed like a decent filter. Obviously I was wrong in my perception :)
- kls 15y ago
  Sure I was not trying to represent it as your view, just trying to highlight the deceptively simple but flawed reasoning in this hiring practice. People believe that because logic is involved having a trick logic puzzle will filter out bad candidates, but given the nature of development there are other more important qualities of a candidate such as creativity that are not tested and are not displayed in a logic puzzle. So you may filter out a guy that is not real strong on logic but is extremely creative. The creative guy is more important in 90% of the tech jobs out there, and further you only need one person strong on logic in the team because he can be consulted for tough logic, the creative guy cant be leaned on in the same manner to make the non-creative creative. The logic guy can't go to the creative guy and say hey give me a hand with being creative. I believe Google hiring practices that favor these kind of logic puzzles is one of the reasons they have had such an issue innovating in the market place. An overwhelming focus on hiring the technically smartest guy in the room, by nature filters out the most creative guys in the room (it's a right brain, left brain thing). The trick is finding the guy that is right in the middle of the two.

mason55 15y ago

Re: weird extra steps: the idea isn't that they're cool. The idea is that if you are willing to attempt it and solve it successfully, it says something about your problem-solving skills. It's not the be-all end-all, but it seems like a decent first-pass filter. The problem is that you're asking candidates to spend 1+ hour before you've even given them a personal response. I've seen positions with well known companies who ask you to do 4+ hours of work before they even talk to you in person. Imagine if every company did that?

jarek 15y ago
I've had a company give me a written hour-long (easy) test followed by a several-hour-long coding assignment without contact from anyone technical. (Both administered by a secretary/office manager - I appreciate them tons but not when I'm trying to get a sense for your technical organization.) Sorry, I don't think so.
MartinCron 15y ago
I fought really hard to keep my hiring process from requiring a time intensive hoop for candidates to jump through. I felt that it would put off all but the most desperate. Desperate isn't what I was looking for.
- mason55 15y ago
  The people who have time for an 8 hour coding puzzle are the people who aren't doing anything else with their time.
- gaius 15y ago
  Indeed. I have a blog and some code on GitHub. Admittedly neither of them have been updated in a couple of month, but they're there, and if anyone wants to know about my abilities or style, they can go look. Solve a puzzle? Don't waste my time.

up_and_up 15y ago

"You generally don't just come in at 9, work work work, maybe take lunch with your teammates, and trip it out at 5" and "signing up for a startup is signing up for a culture" Who said anything about 9-5? I previously worked at a fast-paced startup for 2 years, which is well represented on my resume. I have a good idea what I am in for.

shadowfiend 15y ago
Fair enough. But it seems like at that point it should be clear that a culture fit is part of the qualification when you're looking for a “qualified developer”, no?

pnathan 15y ago

I'm not going to go out and solve project euler style problems for a company unless they are paying me. My time has value, and asking me to give away hours of it on the hope of an interview is not really acceptable. I'd rather find an open source project and submit patches instead... that IMO has a lot more to do with what I'd be doing at a company anyway.