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> I get what he's saying: the Maginot line was a pretty epic blunder. What is often forgotten about the Maginot Line is that... it worked, it did exactly what

> I get what he's saying: the Maginot line was a pretty epic blunder. What is often forgotten about the Maginot Line is that... it worked, it did exactly what it was supposed to. The failure was in French military leadership, largely for reasons that probably would have played out the same without the Maginot Line (e.g., refusal to believe intelligence reports, slowness in response, etc.).

jollyllama 4y ago
While Patton's quote is open to interpretation, the Maginot Line is a case where he's dead on. What was the opportunity cost of building these giant and somewhat extravagant fortifications? Hindsight is 20:20 but maybe things could have worked out better for the French if they had used the massive amounts resources in a different way.
- bluGill 4y ago
  Who knows, but the plan itself was sound and it worked. It forced Germany to go via small route and thus made much less land that needed to be defended. They just didn't have a plan to defend that land - if they had a workable plan Germany would have been in real trouble - their troops were overextended on hindsight. It worked because France was incompetent not because Germany had a great battle plan.
  - bnralt 4y ago
    Indeed, I believe the initial plan was to continue the line, but Belgium opposed it. And the Ardennes was thought to be difficult enough terrain that it didn't need to be strongly defended. It was actually the Ardennes that failed expectations as defensive terrain, not the Maginot line (though as you noted, it would have worked as defensible terrain if there was more competent leadership). It's kind of like building a giant fence around an area, then leaving an opening in the middle of it, and then deciding that you don't need to have people guard that opening. And when people inevitably get through the large unguarded opening, you declare that fences are idiotic and useless.
    - vkou 4y ago
      Continuing the line was an impossibility because it would have driven the low countries straight into aligning with the Axis. Just because political concerns ruin your tactic, doesn't mean those political concerns aren't real. The Maginot line was great tactically, but worse than useless strategically, because it completely failed to achieve it's big-picture objective - keeping the Germans out of France.
      - bnralt 4y ago
        The low countries were against it because they feared the Axis, and didn't want to be left on the other side of defensive fortifications. But in the end they fell to the Axis anyway, so I'm not sure how not continuing the long helped. Either way it's a moot point. As I said, the Ardennes would have been an effective barrier if it was better defended. You can't leave an unguarded opening in your fence and then declare that fences are useless. Yes, France still fell in the end. Static defenses weren't able to overcome weak leadership, but - importantly - it's mobile forces weren't able to overcome it either. In the end the mobile forces ended up being _much_ more susceptible to poor leadership than the static defenses, leading to a large chunk of the army getting disastrously cut off (and the need to get evacuated from Dunkirk).
        foobarian 4y ago
        > Yes, France still fell in the end For a little bit, anyway. But what does that actually mean? I often wonder what would have happened had Germany not pursued genocide, and just stopped at France. It's not like the French people would magically turn German overnight. Would the resulting entity end up like a confederacy? Same reasoning with Napoleon, too. What if they had stopped before the Russia disaster?
        bluGill 4y ago
        Poland has treaties with France and England: both were in process of mobilizing after the fall of Poland. I think it is inevitable that England would have at least made some attempt at war. Though I wonder if Hitler could have made things worth if he had not started the Eastern front. (I'm not clear on how that started, and Stalin wasn't to be trusted)
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  I am no expert but wonder if the Maginot Line could be more useful as long term reusable defence. It wasn't a game ender for WW2. But could it still be useful now to supplement a modern approach?
jmcomets 4y ago
Just adding to this for the uninitiated-but-curious: the German army invaded by going around the line. This meant taking tanks through the Ardennes, a bordering region consisting of mountains and forests, not quite the Panzer's ideal terrain... Nowadays it's still used as a French expression to describe a "seemingly impassable defense that's useless in the end".
- iso1631 4y ago
  One thing I read recently said one of the aims of the maginot line was to delay the Germans (it did -- they had to go through NL/BE), and another was to ensure they went through BE and thus brought the British in to the fight (due to a UK/BE defence guarantee). It did that too.
  - dmichulke 4y ago
    I think the British also guaranteed Poland, so they we're already in in September '39
    - breischl 4y ago
      But when the line was conceived and built, they couldn't have known Germany would invade Poland first.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      Wasn't that that "Quiet war" ie, both france and great britain had guaranteed poland, and declared war, but didn't actually push out troops or really do anything until france was invaded?
      - goodcanadian 4y ago
        Phoney War. War was declared, but no real fighting was going on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War
yamtaddle 4y ago
Right—it's not like they'd have done better without it. Odds are they would have lost even sooner, in fact. The little air war after Poland was invaded would have instantly been a bloody ground war in the West, too, rather than most of the action on that front waiting until Germany marched through the low countries. Not like they'd have been better off with that border unfortified—it likely bought them some weeks or months, not that it mattered for the ultimate outcome. Hell, without it, Germany may have decided to attack West first, then turn East, rather than vice-versa.

jollyllama 4y ago

While Patton's quote is open to interpretation, the Maginot Line is a case where he's dead on. What was the opportunity cost of building these giant and somewhat extravagant fortifications? Hindsight is 20:20 but maybe things could have worked out better for the French if they had used the massive amounts resources in a different way.

bluGill 4y ago
Who knows, but the plan itself was sound and it worked. It forced Germany to go via small route and thus made much less land that needed to be defended. They just didn't have a plan to defend that land - if they had a workable plan Germany would have been in real trouble - their troops were overextended on hindsight. It worked because France was incompetent not because Germany had a great battle plan.
- bnralt 4y ago
  Indeed, I believe the initial plan was to continue the line, but Belgium opposed it. And the Ardennes was thought to be difficult enough terrain that it didn't need to be strongly defended. It was actually the Ardennes that failed expectations as defensive terrain, not the Maginot line (though as you noted, it would have worked as defensible terrain if there was more competent leadership). It's kind of like building a giant fence around an area, then leaving an opening in the middle of it, and then deciding that you don't need to have people guard that opening. And when people inevitably get through the large unguarded opening, you declare that fences are idiotic and useless.
  - vkou 4y ago
    Continuing the line was an impossibility because it would have driven the low countries straight into aligning with the Axis. Just because political concerns ruin your tactic, doesn't mean those political concerns aren't real. The Maginot line was great tactically, but worse than useless strategically, because it completely failed to achieve it's big-picture objective - keeping the Germans out of France.
    - bnralt 4y ago
      The low countries were against it because they feared the Axis, and didn't want to be left on the other side of defensive fortifications. But in the end they fell to the Axis anyway, so I'm not sure how not continuing the long helped. Either way it's a moot point. As I said, the Ardennes would have been an effective barrier if it was better defended. You can't leave an unguarded opening in your fence and then declare that fences are useless. Yes, France still fell in the end. Static defenses weren't able to overcome weak leadership, but - importantly - it's mobile forces weren't able to overcome it either. In the end the mobile forces ended up being _much_ more susceptible to poor leadership than the static defenses, leading to a large chunk of the army getting disastrously cut off (and the need to get evacuated from Dunkirk).
      - foobarian 4y ago
        > Yes, France still fell in the end For a little bit, anyway. But what does that actually mean? I often wonder what would have happened had Germany not pursued genocide, and just stopped at France. It's not like the French people would magically turn German overnight. Would the resulting entity end up like a confederacy? Same reasoning with Napoleon, too. What if they had stopped before the Russia disaster?
        bluGill 4y ago
        Poland has treaties with France and England: both were in process of mobilizing after the fall of Poland. I think it is inevitable that England would have at least made some attempt at war. Though I wonder if Hitler could have made things worth if he had not started the Eastern front. (I'm not clear on how that started, and Stalin wasn't to be trusted)
_carbyau_ 4y ago
I am no expert but wonder if the Maginot Line could be more useful as long term reusable defence. It wasn't a game ender for WW2. But could it still be useful now to supplement a modern approach?

jmcomets 4y ago

Just adding to this for the uninitiated-but-curious: the German army invaded by going around the line. This meant taking tanks through the Ardennes, a bordering region consisting of mountains and forests, not quite the Panzer's ideal terrain... Nowadays it's still used as a French expression to describe a "seemingly impassable defense that's useless in the end".

iso1631 4y ago
One thing I read recently said one of the aims of the maginot line was to delay the Germans (it did -- they had to go through NL/BE), and another was to ensure they went through BE and thus brought the British in to the fight (due to a UK/BE defence guarantee). It did that too.
- dmichulke 4y ago
  I think the British also guaranteed Poland, so they we're already in in September '39
  - breischl 4y ago
    But when the line was conceived and built, they couldn't have known Germany would invade Poland first.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    Wasn't that that "Quiet war" ie, both france and great britain had guaranteed poland, and declared war, but didn't actually push out troops or really do anything until france was invaded?
    - goodcanadian 4y ago
      Phoney War. War was declared, but no real fighting was going on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War

yamtaddle 4y ago

Right—it's not like they'd have done better without it. Odds are they would have lost even sooner, in fact. The little air war after Poland was invaded would have instantly been a bloody ground war in the West, too, rather than most of the action on that front waiting until Germany marched through the low countries. Not like they'd have been better off with that border unfortified—it likely bought them some weeks or months, not that it mattered for the ultimate outcome. Hell, without it, Germany may have decided to attack West first, then turn East, rather than vice-versa.