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I probably bike more than drive but I will present driver’s argument. My main problem with Idaho stop is cyclist misinterpreting it as having right of way no ma

I probably bike more than drive but I will present driver’s argument. My main problem with Idaho stop is cyclist misinterpreting it as having right of way no matter what, especially on four way stops. As a car, if I am stopping first at stop sign, honest ass to the ground, I am going through that intersection first. If you are a cyclist who is still rolling up to the stop line, you do what you got to do, whether it is full stop or slowing down just enough. I got into multiple arguments with cyclist who thought they should be able to just roll through the stop sign and I should have waited for them. That’s illegal even with the Idaho stop.

gwbas1c 4y ago
I've seen cops give tickets to bicyclists for that. I happened to see the patrol car's number, and sent an email to the police department thanking them.
brailsafe 4y ago
Ya but probably 4 way stops should be abolished
- kube-system 4y ago
  2-way stops are often worse, and replacing them with roundabouts often require the use of eminent domain.
bombcar 4y ago
What people don't realize about right-of-way laws is that they are there for everyone's safety! This is because predictability is a huge part of traveling safe - for the pedestrians, the bicyclists, the cars. If you can't reasonably predict what someone is going to do, you have an emergency situation that has to be handled.
- Test0129 4y ago
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - valeness 4y ago
    Great, I can wax poetic how I'm nearly hit by cars walking on the sidewalk and crossing intersections as a pedestrian EVERY SINGLE TIME I WALK TO THE STORE. Or I can talk about how cars drive in the bike lane EVERY SINGLE TIME. Actually, it IS your problem if you hit me when I Idaho Stop a stop-sign, it's entirely legal to do so in my state and it just means you're an irresponsible driver who can't be assed to actually look both ways before crossing an intersection. Yeah, you are the problem, you precisely. Not your argument in general, it's you, entitled carbrains who think you deserve the road because you're bigger or spent more money on your vehicle. "woe is me, I might have a dent in my car" ~ you talking to a dead teenager that was biking home from school How about you learn to drive. The entire fucking world is catered to cars. City planning. Road design. Traffic Engineering. Shopping. Live events. etc. All catered to you, and you still want more. I can't imagine the fucking audacity.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      So it is a driver's fault if they hit you because you refused to yield?
      - samatman 4y ago
        This seems to be an inevitable consequence yes. The Idaho stop changes the rules of a 4 way stop, because bikes have three modes, and cars have two. I'll assume we all know the rules of a 4-way, which, by the way: 4-way stops suck, they should be roundabouts in almost all cases, and this nonsense is a big part of why they suck. That said: two cars rolling up to stop signs can know which one gets to cross. If it's a bike, the bike gets to cross. If the car claims the right of way out of a full stop, and the bike is not in roll-mode (which it has absolutely no business being, in this scenario), the bike to stop. But look: if a car is at a stop and a bike is heading across its path on any reasonable vector, hitting the gas is asshole behavior. Cool your jets. That's the moral intuition, the rule needs to be that bikes get the tie break on any right-of-way question involving stop signs. It is, to end where I began, a consequence of having the Idaho rule in the first place.
- ftyers 4y ago
  I don't know to what extent that is true, I'm not saying it's not, but I also wonder. Having been in a lot of places where the traffic is unpredictable, I've noticed that people pay a lot more attention to the road and their surroundings and in general drive more defensively than on places where there is an assumption that everyone is following the same rules. This is just anecdotal of course, but I think it would be interesting to look into. I certainly feel a lot safer as a pedestrian in Mexico than in the US for example, even though the traffic is more unpredictable. But again it might be an illusion.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    The key with Mexico is that all traffic is unpredictable. The US gets into an unfortunate "local maxima" where the car traffic is relatively predictable so anything that deviates is much more dangerous. Whereas free-for-alls like India, et al, are predictable in their unpredictability - you can't rest for a moment because everything is chaos. There's also a tipping point when you have enough crowding that everything slows down.
    - ftyers 4y ago
      Yeah I think there is definitely a trade off in terms of speed vs. predictability vs. safety, but wonder what it is. Like is it 3 pick 2?
      - bombcar 4y ago
        It's not quite that well defined, I think - I suspect that someplace with those massive "drive with your horn" traffic jams have tons and tons of "very minor" incidents that just happen. Trying to clean that up ends up speeding things up so that the incidents that DO happen become worse. We even kind of see that with air and train travel - they are almost perfectly incident-free, but when an incident does happen many can die.
- tanseydavid 4y ago
  Predictability. Thank you so much for mentioning this. The most-egregious breakdown of this that I have seen is when a cyclist who decides to STOP (and even signals this intent) is then overtaken by another cyclist at near full speed who then suddenly bursts into the intersection without warning. I don't see it too frequently but I have it seen multiple times. This is simply bad and dangerous behavior but still considered justified by some. Where I live we have a huge number of sport bicyclers that come in from other areas, especially on weekends. So the percentage of clueless hotheads on bicycles is higher than average I would expect.
kube-system 4y ago
I almost got into an accident with a cyclist who did this while going down a steep hill towards a 4-way stop. I was already at a complete stop at the 4-way, and started to proceed through when I saw the cyclist moving at 20mph+ down the hill towards the intersection. Luckily I was able to stop in time. Predictability is important.
- bombcar 4y ago
  I feel people really don't understand what a YIELD sign means ...
giantg2 4y ago
I was coming up to a non-intersection crosswalk slowly because there isn’t great line of sight to people approaching. I had a cyclist almost flip over because they panicked when trying to ride a bike (without stopping or anything) through that crosswalk. Then they were pissed at me, even after I stopped to let them across (I mean they were already in the middle of the lane anyways). Stupid? Yes. Illegal? Yes. Did they learn anything? Probably not, based on their reaction.
- valeness 4y ago
  It's cute how almost everyone here is bringing up like one or two instances they had an issue with a cyclist. when you could ask any cyclist how many issues they have with cars and the volume of negative interactions is MASSIVELY different. Oh cool, you met a single bad cyclist. Every time I go out on foot or on bike I meet like 3 bad drivers. Oh, and when I meet a bad driver I am likely to die or be critically injured, when you meet a bad cyclist you're likely to scratch your paint. It's important to zoom out and have some perspective.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    "It's important to zoom out and have some perspective." I could say the same to you. I'm listing one of many bad experiences. Look at my other comments - I'm advocating for stricting driver testing because the current stuff is a joke. How about the percentage of bad drivers vs bad cyclists? I see a lot of bad drivers because they're more drivers. I'd guess about 1 in 40 cars I see are doing something illegal and unsafe. I'd say I see 1 in 10 bicyclists doing something illegal and unsafe. Yes, the severity is likely higher with a car. But don't handwave away the possibility of serious injury or death in an accident involving a bad cyclist, particularly if another driver is trying to avoid hitting them. Hitting a cyclist can be a lot like hitting a deer, and there are fatalities associated with that every year. Edit: why disagree?
    - avianlyric 4y ago
      We have stats on this, I’m sure you know how to use Google. But TL;DR drivers break the rules more often than cyclists. Almost every driver breaks the speed limit on a regular basis. It happens so often that it’s completely normalised and ignored, despite the fact it significantly increases the risk of serious injury and death to vulnerable road users. Fatality rate of pedestrians in car related collisions rises from something like 10% to 100% between the speeds of 30mph and 40mph. Yet many drivers see no issue with ignoring a 20mph or 30mph speed limit in a residential area.

gwbas1c 4y ago

I've seen cops give tickets to bicyclists for that. I happened to see the patrol car's number, and sent an email to the police department thanking them.

brailsafe 4y ago

Ya but probably 4 way stops should be abolished

kube-system 4y ago
2-way stops are often worse, and replacing them with roundabouts often require the use of eminent domain.

bombcar 4y ago

What people don't realize about right-of-way laws is that they are there for everyone's safety! This is because predictability is a huge part of traveling safe - for the pedestrians, the bicyclists, the cars. If you can't reasonably predict what someone is going to do, you have an emergency situation that has to be handled.

Test0129 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- valeness 4y ago
  Great, I can wax poetic how I'm nearly hit by cars walking on the sidewalk and crossing intersections as a pedestrian EVERY SINGLE TIME I WALK TO THE STORE. Or I can talk about how cars drive in the bike lane EVERY SINGLE TIME. Actually, it IS your problem if you hit me when I Idaho Stop a stop-sign, it's entirely legal to do so in my state and it just means you're an irresponsible driver who can't be assed to actually look both ways before crossing an intersection. Yeah, you are the problem, you precisely. Not your argument in general, it's you, entitled carbrains who think you deserve the road because you're bigger or spent more money on your vehicle. "woe is me, I might have a dent in my car" ~ you talking to a dead teenager that was biking home from school How about you learn to drive. The entire fucking world is catered to cars. City planning. Road design. Traffic Engineering. Shopping. Live events. etc. All catered to you, and you still want more. I can't imagine the fucking audacity.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    So it is a driver's fault if they hit you because you refused to yield?
    - samatman 4y ago
      This seems to be an inevitable consequence yes. The Idaho stop changes the rules of a 4 way stop, because bikes have three modes, and cars have two. I'll assume we all know the rules of a 4-way, which, by the way: 4-way stops suck, they should be roundabouts in almost all cases, and this nonsense is a big part of why they suck. That said: two cars rolling up to stop signs can know which one gets to cross. If it's a bike, the bike gets to cross. If the car claims the right of way out of a full stop, and the bike is not in roll-mode (which it has absolutely no business being, in this scenario), the bike to stop. But look: if a car is at a stop and a bike is heading across its path on any reasonable vector, hitting the gas is asshole behavior. Cool your jets. That's the moral intuition, the rule needs to be that bikes get the tie break on any right-of-way question involving stop signs. It is, to end where I began, a consequence of having the Idaho rule in the first place.
ftyers 4y ago
I don't know to what extent that is true, I'm not saying it's not, but I also wonder. Having been in a lot of places where the traffic is unpredictable, I've noticed that people pay a lot more attention to the road and their surroundings and in general drive more defensively than on places where there is an assumption that everyone is following the same rules. This is just anecdotal of course, but I think it would be interesting to look into. I certainly feel a lot safer as a pedestrian in Mexico than in the US for example, even though the traffic is more unpredictable. But again it might be an illusion.
- bombcar 4y ago
  The key with Mexico is that all traffic is unpredictable. The US gets into an unfortunate "local maxima" where the car traffic is relatively predictable so anything that deviates is much more dangerous. Whereas free-for-alls like India, et al, are predictable in their unpredictability - you can't rest for a moment because everything is chaos. There's also a tipping point when you have enough crowding that everything slows down.
  - ftyers 4y ago
    Yeah I think there is definitely a trade off in terms of speed vs. predictability vs. safety, but wonder what it is. Like is it 3 pick 2?
    - bombcar 4y ago
      It's not quite that well defined, I think - I suspect that someplace with those massive "drive with your horn" traffic jams have tons and tons of "very minor" incidents that just happen. Trying to clean that up ends up speeding things up so that the incidents that DO happen become worse. We even kind of see that with air and train travel - they are almost perfectly incident-free, but when an incident does happen many can die.
tanseydavid 4y ago
Predictability. Thank you so much for mentioning this. The most-egregious breakdown of this that I have seen is when a cyclist who decides to STOP (and even signals this intent) is then overtaken by another cyclist at near full speed who then suddenly bursts into the intersection without warning. I don't see it too frequently but I have it seen multiple times. This is simply bad and dangerous behavior but still considered justified by some. Where I live we have a huge number of sport bicyclers that come in from other areas, especially on weekends. So the percentage of clueless hotheads on bicycles is higher than average I would expect.

kube-system 4y ago

I almost got into an accident with a cyclist who did this while going down a steep hill towards a 4-way stop. I was already at a complete stop at the 4-way, and started to proceed through when I saw the cyclist moving at 20mph+ down the hill towards the intersection. Luckily I was able to stop in time. Predictability is important.

bombcar 4y ago
I feel people really don't understand what a YIELD sign means ...

giantg2 4y ago

I was coming up to a non-intersection crosswalk slowly because there isn’t great line of sight to people approaching. I had a cyclist almost flip over because they panicked when trying to ride a bike (without stopping or anything) through that crosswalk. Then they were pissed at me, even after I stopped to let them across (I mean they were already in the middle of the lane anyways). Stupid? Yes. Illegal? Yes. Did they learn anything? Probably not, based on their reaction.

valeness 4y ago
It's cute how almost everyone here is bringing up like one or two instances they had an issue with a cyclist. when you could ask any cyclist how many issues they have with cars and the volume of negative interactions is MASSIVELY different. Oh cool, you met a single bad cyclist. Every time I go out on foot or on bike I meet like 3 bad drivers. Oh, and when I meet a bad driver I am likely to die or be critically injured, when you meet a bad cyclist you're likely to scratch your paint. It's important to zoom out and have some perspective.
- giantg2 4y ago
  "It's important to zoom out and have some perspective." I could say the same to you. I'm listing one of many bad experiences. Look at my other comments - I'm advocating for stricting driver testing because the current stuff is a joke. How about the percentage of bad drivers vs bad cyclists? I see a lot of bad drivers because they're more drivers. I'd guess about 1 in 40 cars I see are doing something illegal and unsafe. I'd say I see 1 in 10 bicyclists doing something illegal and unsafe. Yes, the severity is likely higher with a car. But don't handwave away the possibility of serious injury or death in an accident involving a bad cyclist, particularly if another driver is trying to avoid hitting them. Hitting a cyclist can be a lot like hitting a deer, and there are fatalities associated with that every year. Edit: why disagree?
  - avianlyric 4y ago
    We have stats on this, I’m sure you know how to use Google. But TL;DR drivers break the rules more often than cyclists. Almost every driver breaks the speed limit on a regular basis. It happens so often that it’s completely normalised and ignored, despite the fact it significantly increases the risk of serious injury and death to vulnerable road users. Fatality rate of pedestrians in car related collisions rises from something like 10% to 100% between the speeds of 30mph and 40mph. Yet many drivers see no issue with ignoring a 20mph or 30mph speed limit in a residential area.