5 ms·

"Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man." - George S. Patton

by jollyllama 4y ago

rjsw 4y ago
The one at Metz managed to stop him.
melling 4y ago
I was just trying to find that line from the movie. My Google skills failed me.
nimbius 4y ago
Give me 25lbs of easy mix Dexpan and a hammer drill, and ill show you a gravel pit in about three hours.
- piva00 4y ago
  You forgot the 3 hours of complete ceasefire you will require.
- MagnumOpus 4y ago
  Three hours are a very long time when pounded with artillery or raked with automatic arms...
- arethuza 4y ago
  Didn't someone make a similar comment about Cheyenne Mountain and SS-18s with 25Mt warheads?
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  You're going to survive three hours of pre-targeted direct or indirect fire?
- ISL 4y ago
  TIL about Dexpan. Clever idea. Also, as sibling says, good luck hammer-drilling under fire.
  - mattkrause 4y ago
    Do you need the hammer-drill if you can coax the OPFOR into firing onto their own fortifications?
- 6stringmerc 4y ago
  How would this work in very thick clay like I have here in Texas? Caliche is the native term.
- gamblor956 4y ago
  For those talking about the "3 hours under fire": Dexpan is an expanding cement that cracks concrete over a few hours. Once placed into a hole or crack, you don't need to hang around to do anything. The reason for the hammer drill is to make holes in the dragon's teeth to put the Dexpan into. For that, you only a minute per tooth, and it doesn't matter where you put the hole, so you can use the teeth as cover from defensive fire while you drill.
  - mcguire 4y ago
    Somehow, this sounds like one of those "use paintballs to blind enemy tanks" things that work out better in theory than practice. A snazzy demo video for an anti-personnel artillery round: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G18Rwoa7c1kt25 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G18Rwoa7c1kt25 The demo starts at :20 or so.
nordsieck 4y ago
I get what he's saying: the Maginot line was a pretty epic blunder. But it's easy to over generalize what he's saying. It's absolutely best practice for modern infantry to improve their defensive posture while staying in place. You can see this by the extensive trench system both sides of the Ukraine war have constructed whenever positions get fixed for even a relatively short period of time.
- jcranmer 4y ago
  > I get what he's saying: the Maginot line was a pretty epic blunder. What is often forgotten about the Maginot Line is that... it worked, it did exactly what it was supposed to. The failure was in French military leadership, largely for reasons that probably would have played out the same without the Maginot Line (e.g., refusal to believe intelligence reports, slowness in response, etc.).
  - jollyllama 4y ago
    While Patton's quote is open to interpretation, the Maginot Line is a case where he's dead on. What was the opportunity cost of building these giant and somewhat extravagant fortifications? Hindsight is 20:20 but maybe things could have worked out better for the French if they had used the massive amounts resources in a different way.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      Who knows, but the plan itself was sound and it worked. It forced Germany to go via small route and thus made much less land that needed to be defended. They just didn't have a plan to defend that land - if they had a workable plan Germany would have been in real trouble - their troops were overextended on hindsight. It worked because France was incompetent not because Germany had a great battle plan.
      - bnralt 4y ago
        Indeed, I believe the initial plan was to continue the line, but Belgium opposed it. And the Ardennes was thought to be difficult enough terrain that it didn't need to be strongly defended. It was actually the Ardennes that failed expectations as defensive terrain, not the Maginot line (though as you noted, it would have worked as defensible terrain if there was more competent leadership). It's kind of like building a giant fence around an area, then leaving an opening in the middle of it, and then deciding that you don't need to have people guard that opening. And when people inevitably get through the large unguarded opening, you declare that fences are idiotic and useless.
frozen11b 4y ago
You realize that Patton's quote about fixed fortifications does not apply to dragon's teeth which are not actually fixed. He was more addressing the Maginot line and other such fixed defensive permanent positions. Edited cause voice to text can be dumb
- xnorswap 4y ago
  It's funny to say they're not fixed when they're still here 70 years after having been laid. The ones near me even have a little plaque describing the date on which they were laid.
ISL 4y ago
Here's Patton in a foxhole: https://www.bridgemanimages.com/it/american-photographer/general-george-s-patton-in-a-foxhole-observation-post-near-el-guetar-tunisia-april-1943-b-w-photo-8/photo/asset/406409 https://www.bridgemanimages.com/it/american-photographer/gen...
- throwawayacc4 4y ago
  A foxhole isn't necessarily a fixed fortification though.
  - ISL 4y ago
    They sure don't move.
    - throwawayacc4 4y ago
      But they're typically not fortifications by definition.
brudgers 4y ago
The Maginot Line worked perfectly. It denied the best line of attack to the enemy. The mistake was relying on the terrain of the unfortified Ardennes to deny a line of attack through the Low Countries. Patton hisself was rather caught out by the same thinking in the winter of 1944.
- rstupek 4y ago
  Patton wasn't in command of the forces opposite the Ardennes nor was he in charge of the forces in the Western Front.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    One can only wonder why that was... Maybe someone should ask Omar Bradley waht he did differently. On a more serious note, while Patton wasm't in charge, he was still a high ranking General and had some influence.
exabrial 4y ago
Dang, beat me to it.
ridgered4 4y ago
While that applies to World War II it seems like medieval castles or WWI trenches were pretty effective.
aidenn0 4y ago
That's an easy stone to throw when you are fighting a war on foreign soil. Particularly since the allies struggled to oust Germans from several fixed fortifications in Europe.
hef19898 4y ago
I'll take any quotes from one of the most self engranding generals of WW2 with more than a grain of salt. Especially one who ended the serving under one of his former subordinates, Omar Bradley. Patton did have a talent for PR so, including catchy quotes.
ransom1538 4y ago
There are great videos of WWII American troops confused at Dragons teeth. They marveled how dumb the entire the obstruction is. Months of work, removed in minutes. They just reverse their tank, take a cable, remove 4 of them, take their ENTIRE tank column through.

"Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man." - George S. Patton

rjsw 4y ago

The one at Metz managed to stop him.

melling 4y ago

I was just trying to find that line from the movie. My Google skills failed me.

nimbius 4y ago

Give me 25lbs of easy mix Dexpan and a hammer drill, and ill show you a gravel pit in about three hours.

piva00 4y ago
You forgot the 3 hours of complete ceasefire you will require.
MagnumOpus 4y ago
Three hours are a very long time when pounded with artillery or raked with automatic arms...
arethuza 4y ago
Didn't someone make a similar comment about Cheyenne Mountain and SS-18s with 25Mt warheads?
chrisseaton 4y ago
You're going to survive three hours of pre-targeted direct or indirect fire?
ISL 4y ago
TIL about Dexpan. Clever idea. Also, as sibling says, good luck hammer-drilling under fire.
- mattkrause 4y ago
  Do you need the hammer-drill if you can coax the OPFOR into firing onto their own fortifications?
6stringmerc 4y ago
How would this work in very thick clay like I have here in Texas? Caliche is the native term.
gamblor956 4y ago
For those talking about the "3 hours under fire": Dexpan is an expanding cement that cracks concrete over a few hours. Once placed into a hole or crack, you don't need to hang around to do anything. The reason for the hammer drill is to make holes in the dragon's teeth to put the Dexpan into. For that, you only a minute per tooth, and it doesn't matter where you put the hole, so you can use the teeth as cover from defensive fire while you drill.
- mcguire 4y ago
  Somehow, this sounds like one of those "use paintballs to blind enemy tanks" things that work out better in theory than practice. A snazzy demo video for an anti-personnel artillery round: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G18Rwoa7c1kt25 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G18Rwoa7c1kt25 The demo starts at :20 or so.

nordsieck 4y ago

I get what he's saying: the Maginot line was a pretty epic blunder. But it's easy to over generalize what he's saying. It's absolutely best practice for modern infantry to improve their defensive posture while staying in place. You can see this by the extensive trench system both sides of the Ukraine war have constructed whenever positions get fixed for even a relatively short period of time.

jcranmer 4y ago
> I get what he's saying: the Maginot line was a pretty epic blunder. What is often forgotten about the Maginot Line is that... it worked, it did exactly what it was supposed to. The failure was in French military leadership, largely for reasons that probably would have played out the same without the Maginot Line (e.g., refusal to believe intelligence reports, slowness in response, etc.).
- jollyllama 4y ago
  While Patton's quote is open to interpretation, the Maginot Line is a case where he's dead on. What was the opportunity cost of building these giant and somewhat extravagant fortifications? Hindsight is 20:20 but maybe things could have worked out better for the French if they had used the massive amounts resources in a different way.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    Who knows, but the plan itself was sound and it worked. It forced Germany to go via small route and thus made much less land that needed to be defended. They just didn't have a plan to defend that land - if they had a workable plan Germany would have been in real trouble - their troops were overextended on hindsight. It worked because France was incompetent not because Germany had a great battle plan.
    - bnralt 4y ago
      Indeed, I believe the initial plan was to continue the line, but Belgium opposed it. And the Ardennes was thought to be difficult enough terrain that it didn't need to be strongly defended. It was actually the Ardennes that failed expectations as defensive terrain, not the Maginot line (though as you noted, it would have worked as defensible terrain if there was more competent leadership). It's kind of like building a giant fence around an area, then leaving an opening in the middle of it, and then deciding that you don't need to have people guard that opening. And when people inevitably get through the large unguarded opening, you declare that fences are idiotic and useless.

frozen11b 4y ago

You realize that Patton's quote about fixed fortifications does not apply to dragon's teeth which are not actually fixed. He was more addressing the Maginot line and other such fixed defensive permanent positions. Edited cause voice to text can be dumb

xnorswap 4y ago
It's funny to say they're not fixed when they're still here 70 years after having been laid. The ones near me even have a little plaque describing the date on which they were laid.

ISL 4y ago

Here's Patton in a foxhole: https://www.bridgemanimages.com/it/american-photographer/general-george-s-patton-in-a-foxhole-observation-post-near-el-guetar-tunisia-april-1943-b-w-photo-8/photo/asset/406409 https://www.bridgemanimages.com/it/american-photographer/gen...

throwawayacc4 4y ago
A foxhole isn't necessarily a fixed fortification though.
- ISL 4y ago
  They sure don't move.
  - throwawayacc4 4y ago
    But they're typically not fortifications by definition.

brudgers 4y ago

The Maginot Line worked perfectly. It denied the best line of attack to the enemy. The mistake was relying on the terrain of the unfortified Ardennes to deny a line of attack through the Low Countries. Patton hisself was rather caught out by the same thinking in the winter of 1944.

rstupek 4y ago
Patton wasn't in command of the forces opposite the Ardennes nor was he in charge of the forces in the Western Front.
- hef19898 4y ago
  One can only wonder why that was... Maybe someone should ask Omar Bradley waht he did differently. On a more serious note, while Patton wasm't in charge, he was still a high ranking General and had some influence.

exabrial 4y ago

Dang, beat me to it.

ridgered4 4y ago

While that applies to World War II it seems like medieval castles or WWI trenches were pretty effective.

aidenn0 4y ago

That's an easy stone to throw when you are fighting a war on foreign soil. Particularly since the allies struggled to oust Germans from several fixed fortifications in Europe.

hef19898 4y ago

I'll take any quotes from one of the most self engranding generals of WW2 with more than a grain of salt. Especially one who ended the serving under one of his former subordinates, Omar Bradley. Patton did have a talent for PR so, including catchy quotes.

ransom1538 4y ago

There are great videos of WWII American troops confused at Dragons teeth. They marveled how dumb the entire the obstruction is. Months of work, removed in minutes. They just reverse their tank, take a cable, remove 4 of them, take their ENTIRE tank column through.