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I like 12tone, but I still think a punk fanzine from '77 nailed the spirit better with "This is a chord. This is another. This is a third. Now form a band"

vanderZwan 4y ago
That feels a bit unfair to 12tone, given that he starts off with addressing the question of "is applying music theory to punk not completely missing the point of a genre about fighting back against an unfair establishment?" and ends with coming back to that question with: "punk is about rage [against an unfair system] and a refusal to accept that fighting back is meaningless, everything else is window dressing". He's not trying to "nail the spirit" and fully aware that his analysis is just window dressing at the end of the day
- notahacker 4y ago
  It wasn't a criticism of the video. On the contrary, he largely gets it when he starts talking about how playing a guitar really quickly using power chords for timbre limits note sequences and eschews tonality, which is why there end up being a lot of call and response and variation-on-previous sequence type rhythmic patterns to analyse But there's more thought involved in labelling the riffs in the video than composing them :D
brudgers 4y ago
Those fifteen year kids old whose lives Never Mind the Bollocks changed are sixty years old, now. Arguing over the "spirit" of punk in 2022 is a full decade more absurd than arguing over the spirit of the Andrews Sisters would have been in 1977. Or to put it another way, the only way to be into punk these days is to entirely miss its point. YMMV.
- notahacker 4y ago
  > Arguing over the "spirit" of punk in 2022 is a full decade more absurd than arguing over the spirit of the Andrews Sisters would have been in 1977. Or the "spirit" of jazz in 1977 or the blues at more or less any point in the 20th century. I'm not sure the relative absurdity of arguing that musical genres have "spirit" or an ethos, or any sort of basic continuity is measured in years since first release... And I don't think kids picking up guitars and tuning them to drop D to play one finger chords really fast are that much more influenced by '77 nostalgia or the barre chords in the little-remembered fanzine than music theory videos. But the basic approach changes a lot less than the ad hoc theory applied to it, or indeed the music.
  - brudgers 4y ago
    Today, electric guitar power chords signify conformity to grandpa’s musical traditions not youthful rebellion. Barbershop quartet would be more daring.
    - agentwiggles 4y ago
      my mileage varies on this for sure. i take your point but idk. there's definitely a spectrum ranging from Greta Van Fleet to something like Black Midi (or insert other weird band I haven't heard of that makes the point)
      - brudgers 4y ago
        Black MIDI is post-punk since MIDI came in the 1980’s and Black MIDI only became possible years later when computers became much more powerful. And of course, Black MIDI has a formalism consistent with academic music and modernist composition of the 20th century. Which is to say, Black MIDI is avant-garde and insiders sitting at computer looking at notes on a screen. There’s no outrage and nothing outrageous.
        agentwiggles 4y ago
        I was referring to these guys (who I assume are named for the MIDI phenomenon you're referencing): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebrpRKUMcss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebrpRKUMcss I get the sense that I won't be able to post something you won't manage to find derivative and un-punk, but these guys are among the more unique modern guitar driven music I know of. YMMV.
        brudgers 4y ago
        I just don’t think punk has been relevant after Thatcher and Regen, which means I am giving it more than a decade. Certainly by 1990, rappers had take the mantle of “that’s not music” outrage, and sampling was becoming what was considered the talentless noise not at all musical. I mean I know a few people who have been into punk for forty years. Some have grandkids. There’s nothing wrong with guitar driven music. It is just old fashioned.

vanderZwan 4y ago

That feels a bit unfair to 12tone, given that he starts off with addressing the question of "is applying music theory to punk not completely missing the point of a genre about fighting back against an unfair establishment?" and ends with coming back to that question with: "punk is about rage [against an unfair system] and a refusal to accept that fighting back is meaningless, everything else is window dressing". He's not trying to "nail the spirit" and fully aware that his analysis is just window dressing at the end of the day

notahacker 4y ago
It wasn't a criticism of the video. On the contrary, he largely gets it when he starts talking about how playing a guitar really quickly using power chords for timbre limits note sequences and eschews tonality, which is why there end up being a lot of call and response and variation-on-previous sequence type rhythmic patterns to analyse But there's more thought involved in labelling the riffs in the video than composing them :D

brudgers 4y ago

Those fifteen year kids old whose lives Never Mind the Bollocks changed are sixty years old, now. Arguing over the "spirit" of punk in 2022 is a full decade more absurd than arguing over the spirit of the Andrews Sisters would have been in 1977. Or to put it another way, the only way to be into punk these days is to entirely miss its point. YMMV.

notahacker 4y ago
> Arguing over the "spirit" of punk in 2022 is a full decade more absurd than arguing over the spirit of the Andrews Sisters would have been in 1977. Or the "spirit" of jazz in 1977 or the blues at more or less any point in the 20th century. I'm not sure the relative absurdity of arguing that musical genres have "spirit" or an ethos, or any sort of basic continuity is measured in years since first release... And I don't think kids picking up guitars and tuning them to drop D to play one finger chords really fast are that much more influenced by '77 nostalgia or the barre chords in the little-remembered fanzine than music theory videos. But the basic approach changes a lot less than the ad hoc theory applied to it, or indeed the music.
- brudgers 4y ago
  Today, electric guitar power chords signify conformity to grandpa’s musical traditions not youthful rebellion. Barbershop quartet would be more daring.
  - agentwiggles 4y ago
    my mileage varies on this for sure. i take your point but idk. there's definitely a spectrum ranging from Greta Van Fleet to something like Black Midi (or insert other weird band I haven't heard of that makes the point)
    - brudgers 4y ago
      Black MIDI is post-punk since MIDI came in the 1980’s and Black MIDI only became possible years later when computers became much more powerful. And of course, Black MIDI has a formalism consistent with academic music and modernist composition of the 20th century. Which is to say, Black MIDI is avant-garde and insiders sitting at computer looking at notes on a screen. There’s no outrage and nothing outrageous.
      - agentwiggles 4y ago
        I was referring to these guys (who I assume are named for the MIDI phenomenon you're referencing): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebrpRKUMcss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebrpRKUMcss I get the sense that I won't be able to post something you won't manage to find derivative and un-punk, but these guys are among the more unique modern guitar driven music I know of. YMMV.
        brudgers 4y ago
        I just don’t think punk has been relevant after Thatcher and Regen, which means I am giving it more than a decade. Certainly by 1990, rappers had take the mantle of “that’s not music” outrage, and sampling was becoming what was considered the talentless noise not at all musical. I mean I know a few people who have been into punk for forty years. Some have grandkids. There’s nothing wrong with guitar driven music. It is just old fashioned.