4 ms·

No remotely reputable STEM PhD program in the US actually charges you tuition, they also pay you a modest wage like you describe in Europe. You might have to TA

No remotely reputable STEM PhD program in the US actually charges you tuition, they also pay you a modest wage like you describe in Europe. You might have to TA some semesters if you don't go to a top program or work for a well established prof. But the compensation even for that case includes tuition, health insurance, and stipend. It's not a bad deal especially in the early years of a program when you are actually spending most of your time taking classes and learning other background. The capped length sounds nice, but I think the years they shave off are mostly just at the start, not the years you spend grinding out research. The first year of a US PhD would typically be separated out as an independent Master's degree in Europe. I have no idea what the academic culture is like over there, so I can't actually say whether it would've been better with regards to the things I disliked about PhD. But the facts you presented don't make me optimistic. A lot of them I don't consider problems in the US personally, and the absolute biggest problem for me is the ridiculous professorship job pipeline. I'd also be cautious about that 50% US drop out number. It is likely < 20% at a T25 program in any STEM field in the US, certainly in my field that is the case. Perhaps it is higher in CS because people intentionally master out after 2 years to take a lucrative tech job. But I wouldn't consider that failing with the kind of connotation "drop out" has. I would suggest extra caution before attending a mediocre (or worse) program of course.

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
I don't know, when I read US PhD students posting in academic Twitter I'm under the impression that they have to pay huge tuition and go into debt, can barely subsist, are exploited for teaching and can't even do much research, and are often on the brink of depression. I assumed reality would be somewhat less grim as my sample is probably biased towards the ones who complain, but maybe it's so biased that it doesn't even resemble reality at all.
- jhbadger 4y ago
  There is professional school (med school, law school, business school) and there are PhD programs. The former do cost quite a bit in the US, but Ph.D programs in the US (at least in the sciences) don't cost anything if you get in and in fact pay you a salary (I have a doctorate in microbiology and that's how it was for me and everybody I know). That being said, this generosity has a dark side -- there are considerably more Ph.Ds produced than can have jobs in scientific research and that's because grad students are a source of cheap labor for professors.
- caddemon 4y ago
  I think it's true that many PhD students have less time for pursuing their own research interests than they would hope, it is very tied to your advisor's wishes. Brink of depression is probably not a huge exaggeration either, at least for a non-negligible subset. Barely subsisting is definitely not true for a STEM PhD at a decent program though. You're getting paid way less than you could probably, but as long as you're willing to have a couple housemates (usually fellow students) and are not yet supporting anyone else it's a reasonably comfortable wage. Keep in mind that solid health insurance and student perks like university gym membership are also provided at 0 cost. This might be controversial, but people who have excess expenses (for whatever reason) in their mid 20s probably shouldn't undertake a PhD in the first place. That's the only way a STEM researcher who didn't settle for a subpar school could possibly end up in additional debt as a PhD student IME. Post doc wages, given the career stage and associated job culture/benefits, are notably shittier. Debt still feels like an exaggeration to me, but a 35 year old with a lot of training and unclear future career prospects should at least be able to support a middle class family lifestyle with their postdoc wages. A 25 year old that is working towards an actual degree and still benefiting from student status is such a different situation. In hindsight, the maximally enjoyable thing might be to work for FIRE and then pseudo retire to being a PhD student. A PhD can be inherently valuable, the problem is just how tied it is to an insane career path. Anyway, it's possible the posting students are humanities PhDs? At a good place they still don't pay tuition, but will often get basically 0 stipend. So they legit need loans for living expenses. Either that or Twitter amplifies complaints from schools that one really should not do a PhD at.

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago

I don't know, when I read US PhD students posting in academic Twitter I'm under the impression that they have to pay huge tuition and go into debt, can barely subsist, are exploited for teaching and can't even do much research, and are often on the brink of depression. I assumed reality would be somewhat less grim as my sample is probably biased towards the ones who complain, but maybe it's so biased that it doesn't even resemble reality at all.

jhbadger 4y ago
There is professional school (med school, law school, business school) and there are PhD programs. The former do cost quite a bit in the US, but Ph.D programs in the US (at least in the sciences) don't cost anything if you get in and in fact pay you a salary (I have a doctorate in microbiology and that's how it was for me and everybody I know). That being said, this generosity has a dark side -- there are considerably more Ph.Ds produced than can have jobs in scientific research and that's because grad students are a source of cheap labor for professors.
caddemon 4y ago
I think it's true that many PhD students have less time for pursuing their own research interests than they would hope, it is very tied to your advisor's wishes. Brink of depression is probably not a huge exaggeration either, at least for a non-negligible subset. Barely subsisting is definitely not true for a STEM PhD at a decent program though. You're getting paid way less than you could probably, but as long as you're willing to have a couple housemates (usually fellow students) and are not yet supporting anyone else it's a reasonably comfortable wage. Keep in mind that solid health insurance and student perks like university gym membership are also provided at 0 cost. This might be controversial, but people who have excess expenses (for whatever reason) in their mid 20s probably shouldn't undertake a PhD in the first place. That's the only way a STEM researcher who didn't settle for a subpar school could possibly end up in additional debt as a PhD student IME. Post doc wages, given the career stage and associated job culture/benefits, are notably shittier. Debt still feels like an exaggeration to me, but a 35 year old with a lot of training and unclear future career prospects should at least be able to support a middle class family lifestyle with their postdoc wages. A 25 year old that is working towards an actual degree and still benefiting from student status is such a different situation. In hindsight, the maximally enjoyable thing might be to work for FIRE and then pseudo retire to being a PhD student. A PhD can be inherently valuable, the problem is just how tied it is to an insane career path. Anyway, it's possible the posting students are humanities PhDs? At a good place they still don't pay tuition, but will often get basically 0 stipend. So they legit need loans for living expenses. Either that or Twitter amplifies complaints from schools that one really should not do a PhD at.