4 ms·

Could you list some examples of legitimate concerns of theirs that does not involve misunderstanding or misrepresenting their opponents' position? As an outside

Could you list some examples of legitimate concerns of theirs that does not involve misunderstanding or misrepresenting their opponents' position? As an outsider who's not from the west, these "oversensitive snowflakes" do seem to have goals in common with the left, but are fundamentally extreme in their motivations and reasoning (and transitively their causes).

TexanFeller 4y ago
I’m not so sure those with extreme views merely “have goals in common with the left”, I think they are the mainstream left now. The Biden admin appointed a transgender health secretary(my problem is not that they are transgender, but that they were appointed specifically because they were), has tried to force states to allow or even provide medical/surgical transition to minors, in some cases without parental consent, etc. I’m sympathetic to the concerns of transgender persons, but permanent life altering procedures for children is something that should demand a massive level of evidence and public debate. From what I can tell the evidence for who and when and how to treat is still unclear and ideologues are trying quite hard to suppress any debate.
- eesmith 4y ago
  FWIW, that's assistant secretary for health. Also, Harvard and Tulane educated, residency at Mount Sinai, faculty at Penn State, Pennsylvania's physician general, then Secretary of Health for Pennsylvania (unanimously confirmed by the Senate) before Biden's nomination. Why do you think that background wasn't an important part of her nomination, and only her trans status? > has tried to force states to allow or even provide medical/surgical transition to minors, in some cases without parental consent, etc I ... do not believe the assistant secretary for health has the power to force states to do something. By "medical transition" you mean hormone therapy, right? Hormone therapy is associated with a lower rate of depression and suicidality in minors, and transgender youth have a high rate of suicide than non-LGBT youth. https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/full... Which is, as I understand, why hormone therapy is part of the standard for gender-affirming care for minors, as set by (for example) WPATH and the Endocrine Society, and supported by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and from the American Psychological Association. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/04/29/1095227346/rachel-levine-calls-state-anti-lgbtq-bills-disturbing-and-dangerous-to-trans-you https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/04/29/1095227... This shouldn't be so easily coupled with a "/" to surgical transition, which as her department's fact sheet points out at https://opa.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/2022-03/gender-affirming-care-young-people-march-2022.pdf https://opa.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/2022-03/gender-affir... is "Typically used in adulthood or case-by-case in adolescence". Gender affirming care also includes Social Affirmation and Puberty Blockers. > From what I can tell the evidence for who and when and how to treat is still unclear and ideologues are trying quite hard to suppress any debate From what I can tell, those standards of care come from evidence-based research and been around for a while - long before the current political decision to make a brouhaha of the topic. Here's the WPATH Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People - https://wpath.org/publications/soc https://wpath.org/publications/soc It's the "7th version of the Standards of Care since the original 1979 document." It's about 10 years old. The NPR link says a SOC should be coming out this year.
  - TexanFeller 4y ago
    Giving typical males with low testosterone supplemental same-sex hormones is not even settled medicine, so it seems quite unlikely that giving cross-sex hormones and puberty blockers would be at all settled as that has not been done at scale for nearly the same length of time. For years studies have been going back and forth about whether the benefits of exogenous testosterone outweigh the risks for biological men with low T. Exogenous T also very commonly permanently destroys a man’s natural T and sperm production. Many endocrinologists will straight up refuse to give it to get a man to get them within normal levels and they have to resort to those shady “men’s health” clinics. I’m less familiar with the issues, but giving postmenopausal women estrogen has many issues as well, one of them I have unfortunately seen in action is the potential to accelerate nascent breast cancer. Even if puberty blockers don’t have the effects they’re said to(bone and other physical development issues, possible destruction of sexual function and the ability to orgasm in the future) they haven’t been studied long enough for my taste. Even if huge benefits can be shown for certain transgender individuals, there’s still the issue of how to determine which individuals will continue wanting to live as a trans person long term. As these interventions are made widely accessible you can bet that there will be significant numbers of people that regret their decision, but in many cases the effects of medical intervention will be partially or fully irreversible. Imagine how many people may have such regrets if this is done at scale without long and careful study. > Why do you think that background wasn't an important part of her nomination, and only her trans status? Because Biden has unabashedly doubled down on intersectional identity politics. For example for the supreme court justice and his VP pick he explicitly said he would pick black females.
    - eesmith 4y ago
      > Giving typical males with low testosterone supplemental same-sex hormones is not even settled medicine Which is relevant to this discussion because .. why? Just because there isn't an accepted evidence-based standard of care for X doesn't mean there can't be an accepted evidence-based standard of care for Y. (I don't know what "settled medicine" means here, given that standards of care can and do change.) > giving postmenopausal women estrogen has many issues as well Yes, that standard of care has changed based on evidence. > puberty blockers Which are reversible. As my linked-to fact sheet points out. > they haven’t been studied long enough for my taste I think I'm warranted in trusting the opinion of the 7 or so medical organizations I listed far over your opinion. How long will be enough to make you happy? There's been, what, 100 years of studies on the topic? And I pointed out the relevant WPATH Standards of Care started in 1977. How long is enough? > there will be significant numbers of people that regret their decision How many is "significant"? Do significant numbers of people regret their tattoos? Their plastic surgery? Their chemotherapy? Their lottery pick? Does that justify stopping all of those activities? And, as I pointed out, by NOT getting the standard of care, the amount of depression and suicide ideation increases. How many regret NOT being able to get the medically recognized appropriate standard of care because politicians prevented it due to transphobia? > Because Biden has unabashedly doubled down on intersectional identity politics Every single one of those people had a background which, had they been white straight men, would have been generally acceptable for their position. That's a far cry from a claim that they must be incompetent and were picked only for theig "intersectional identity politics".

TexanFeller 4y ago

I’m not so sure those with extreme views merely “have goals in common with the left”, I think they are the mainstream left now. The Biden admin appointed a transgender health secretary(my problem is not that they are transgender, but that they were appointed specifically because they were), has tried to force states to allow or even provide medical/surgical transition to minors, in some cases without parental consent, etc. I’m sympathetic to the concerns of transgender persons, but permanent life altering procedures for children is something that should demand a massive level of evidence and public debate. From what I can tell the evidence for who and when and how to treat is still unclear and ideologues are trying quite hard to suppress any debate.

eesmith 4y ago
FWIW, that's assistant secretary for health. Also, Harvard and Tulane educated, residency at Mount Sinai, faculty at Penn State, Pennsylvania's physician general, then Secretary of Health for Pennsylvania (unanimously confirmed by the Senate) before Biden's nomination. Why do you think that background wasn't an important part of her nomination, and only her trans status? > has tried to force states to allow or even provide medical/surgical transition to minors, in some cases without parental consent, etc I ... do not believe the assistant secretary for health has the power to force states to do something. By "medical transition" you mean hormone therapy, right? Hormone therapy is associated with a lower rate of depression and suicidality in minors, and transgender youth have a high rate of suicide than non-LGBT youth. https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/full... Which is, as I understand, why hormone therapy is part of the standard for gender-affirming care for minors, as set by (for example) WPATH and the Endocrine Society, and supported by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and from the American Psychological Association. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/04/29/1095227346/rachel-levine-calls-state-anti-lgbtq-bills-disturbing-and-dangerous-to-trans-you https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/04/29/1095227... This shouldn't be so easily coupled with a "/" to surgical transition, which as her department's fact sheet points out at https://opa.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/2022-03/gender-affirming-care-young-people-march-2022.pdf https://opa.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/2022-03/gender-affir... is "Typically used in adulthood or case-by-case in adolescence". Gender affirming care also includes Social Affirmation and Puberty Blockers. > From what I can tell the evidence for who and when and how to treat is still unclear and ideologues are trying quite hard to suppress any debate From what I can tell, those standards of care come from evidence-based research and been around for a while - long before the current political decision to make a brouhaha of the topic. Here's the WPATH Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender Nonconforming People - https://wpath.org/publications/soc https://wpath.org/publications/soc It's the "7th version of the Standards of Care since the original 1979 document." It's about 10 years old. The NPR link says a SOC should be coming out this year.
- TexanFeller 4y ago
  Giving typical males with low testosterone supplemental same-sex hormones is not even settled medicine, so it seems quite unlikely that giving cross-sex hormones and puberty blockers would be at all settled as that has not been done at scale for nearly the same length of time. For years studies have been going back and forth about whether the benefits of exogenous testosterone outweigh the risks for biological men with low T. Exogenous T also very commonly permanently destroys a man’s natural T and sperm production. Many endocrinologists will straight up refuse to give it to get a man to get them within normal levels and they have to resort to those shady “men’s health” clinics. I’m less familiar with the issues, but giving postmenopausal women estrogen has many issues as well, one of them I have unfortunately seen in action is the potential to accelerate nascent breast cancer. Even if puberty blockers don’t have the effects they’re said to(bone and other physical development issues, possible destruction of sexual function and the ability to orgasm in the future) they haven’t been studied long enough for my taste. Even if huge benefits can be shown for certain transgender individuals, there’s still the issue of how to determine which individuals will continue wanting to live as a trans person long term. As these interventions are made widely accessible you can bet that there will be significant numbers of people that regret their decision, but in many cases the effects of medical intervention will be partially or fully irreversible. Imagine how many people may have such regrets if this is done at scale without long and careful study. > Why do you think that background wasn't an important part of her nomination, and only her trans status? Because Biden has unabashedly doubled down on intersectional identity politics. For example for the supreme court justice and his VP pick he explicitly said he would pick black females.
  - eesmith 4y ago
    > Giving typical males with low testosterone supplemental same-sex hormones is not even settled medicine Which is relevant to this discussion because .. why? Just because there isn't an accepted evidence-based standard of care for X doesn't mean there can't be an accepted evidence-based standard of care for Y. (I don't know what "settled medicine" means here, given that standards of care can and do change.) > giving postmenopausal women estrogen has many issues as well Yes, that standard of care has changed based on evidence. > puberty blockers Which are reversible. As my linked-to fact sheet points out. > they haven’t been studied long enough for my taste I think I'm warranted in trusting the opinion of the 7 or so medical organizations I listed far over your opinion. How long will be enough to make you happy? There's been, what, 100 years of studies on the topic? And I pointed out the relevant WPATH Standards of Care started in 1977. How long is enough? > there will be significant numbers of people that regret their decision How many is "significant"? Do significant numbers of people regret their tattoos? Their plastic surgery? Their chemotherapy? Their lottery pick? Does that justify stopping all of those activities? And, as I pointed out, by NOT getting the standard of care, the amount of depression and suicide ideation increases. How many regret NOT being able to get the medically recognized appropriate standard of care because politicians prevented it due to transphobia? > Because Biden has unabashedly doubled down on intersectional identity politics Every single one of those people had a background which, had they been white straight men, would have been generally acceptable for their position. That's a far cry from a claim that they must be incompetent and were picked only for theig "intersectional identity politics".