5 ms·

> despite the reality that many citizens of the “republics” have never seen indoor plumbing. Oh please, where do you even find these kind of myths? I've been l

> despite the reality that many citizens of the “republics” have never seen indoor plumbing. Oh please, where do you even find these kind of myths? I've been living and traveling Russia for years - I just can't wrap my head where people get these kinds of idiotic narratives. I mean srsly "never seen indoor plumbing" - do you actually really believe this? Where did you even get an image like that? I'm just really puzzled how people seem to be so "expertly" sure of something, which is verifiably untrue - I've visited so many wilder parts of Russia, including visiting relatives in national republics and I'm super puzzled - like where did you even find this plumbing problem? I mean, I'm sure someone somewhere might have some specific case, but I am pretty sure I would have noticed at least one habitable house without plumbing if that was really a kind of a substantial massive problem you describe it to be. > Muscovites ...on the other hand, I seem to suspect what kind of bubble had formed your outlook...

ithkuil 4y ago
Yeah, it's sad how people intentionally misrepresent and mistranslate things because they want to believe in something. The real Rosstat statistic speak of "centralized sewage" not indoor plumbing. I live in Italy less than 10km outside a provincial capital and I also don't have access to centralized sewage. I assume the situation in rural Russia is no different. How is it in rural America? Low density areas often don't build that infrastructure and leave each house to build waste water management system. Old systems are basically just a hole in the ground but modern systems (like the one I had to install, because the Italian law mandates it) are active filters of various kinds.
- plasticchris 4y ago
  It is the same in rural America, there are regulations but in many places people still use a lagoon. Central sewage is only in big developments or inside the city limits.
hmm0101 4y ago
Hmm...you can get these facts just by reading the news: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/02/indoor-plumbing-still-a-pipe-dream-for-20-of-russian-households-reports-say-a65049 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/02/indoor-plumbing-st... Even pro-Kremlin sources: https://web.archive.org/web/20221004222830/https://www.rt.com/news/russia-city-utilities-hot-water-indoor-plumbing-251/ https://web.archive.org/web/20221004222830/https://www.rt.co... Funny that you have mention a bubble...
- foverzar 4y ago
  > you can get these facts just by reading the news C'mon, it's the 21st centrury. You can find pretty much any kind of narative, whatever ideology and whatever image "on the news". According to "the news" Russians eat babies and Democrats are spawns of antichrist that want to turn all children gay, you know how it is. Even your two links have only a theme in common, the substance is completely different. > Funny that you have mention a bubble... Why? When you don't have a consistent image of the subject and have to rely on an arbitrary proxy to provide you with some out of context piece of info - what is it, if not "bubble"? When talking of scope or magnitude and how things work IRL, I'd rather trust my own empirical evidence, obviously. So your comment on bubbles is kinda ironic to me. I mean, sure, some people don't have central heating (and use boiler), some don't have central sewerage (and direct their pipes to special underground pit, that gets emptied by a honeywagon every few years), some don't have centralized water, so they drill a deep hole and install a well pump - all this is very common in a countryside. But "never seen indoor plumbing"? For real? I mean, we all like our wild medieval uncivilised Russia jokes, but it seems to me that some people take this image just too seriously and seem to have trouble distinciting between a joke and a reality.
  - hmm0101 4y ago
    Both articles were citing Russia’s Federal Statistics Service. I agree that you can find pretty much any narrative and most of the news sources are not very objective. However, in my mind, automatic rejection of "the news" is almost the opposite problem, which is at least as big as the false narrative issue. I have no solutions to offer for any of these problems, but maybe we can at least agree that Russian Federal Statistics Service numbers give us a rough estimate. Trusting your "own empirical evidence", rejecting "the news" is the bubble that I have been talking about. At least to me it looks like a bubble. And I am not saying that I don't live in a bubble, because I do. It takes effort and time to learn all the different sides of the argument, collect facts, etc. so it not possible to do it for all the issues. On the other hand, I completely agree there are good reasons not to trust "the news" blindly or even Russian State Statistics. We need to have some sort of middle way were we do not dismiss arguments just because they are in "the news", but at the same time take a critical look. "Russia begins where asphalt roads end" :) there are always some truth in jokes. "never seen indoor plumbing" could be an exaggeration, but my intuition (my "own empirical evidence" if you will) tells me that the gist of it is true. I have been to Russia and seen Moscow in all of its fanciness. However, further away from Moscow, Saint Petersburg the picture is quite bleak. But that's just my 2 cents. [some edits were made for style and grammar]

ithkuil 4y ago

Yeah, it's sad how people intentionally misrepresent and mistranslate things because they want to believe in something. The real Rosstat statistic speak of "centralized sewage" not indoor plumbing. I live in Italy less than 10km outside a provincial capital and I also don't have access to centralized sewage. I assume the situation in rural Russia is no different. How is it in rural America? Low density areas often don't build that infrastructure and leave each house to build waste water management system. Old systems are basically just a hole in the ground but modern systems (like the one I had to install, because the Italian law mandates it) are active filters of various kinds.

plasticchris 4y ago
It is the same in rural America, there are regulations but in many places people still use a lagoon. Central sewage is only in big developments or inside the city limits.

hmm0101 4y ago

Hmm...you can get these facts just by reading the news: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/02/indoor-plumbing-still-a-pipe-dream-for-20-of-russian-households-reports-say-a65049 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/02/indoor-plumbing-st... Even pro-Kremlin sources: https://web.archive.org/web/20221004222830/https://www.rt.com/news/russia-city-utilities-hot-water-indoor-plumbing-251/ https://web.archive.org/web/20221004222830/https://www.rt.co... Funny that you have mention a bubble...

foverzar 4y ago
> you can get these facts just by reading the news C'mon, it's the 21st centrury. You can find pretty much any kind of narative, whatever ideology and whatever image "on the news". According to "the news" Russians eat babies and Democrats are spawns of antichrist that want to turn all children gay, you know how it is. Even your two links have only a theme in common, the substance is completely different. > Funny that you have mention a bubble... Why? When you don't have a consistent image of the subject and have to rely on an arbitrary proxy to provide you with some out of context piece of info - what is it, if not "bubble"? When talking of scope or magnitude and how things work IRL, I'd rather trust my own empirical evidence, obviously. So your comment on bubbles is kinda ironic to me. I mean, sure, some people don't have central heating (and use boiler), some don't have central sewerage (and direct their pipes to special underground pit, that gets emptied by a honeywagon every few years), some don't have centralized water, so they drill a deep hole and install a well pump - all this is very common in a countryside. But "never seen indoor plumbing"? For real? I mean, we all like our wild medieval uncivilised Russia jokes, but it seems to me that some people take this image just too seriously and seem to have trouble distinciting between a joke and a reality.
- hmm0101 4y ago
  Both articles were citing Russia’s Federal Statistics Service. I agree that you can find pretty much any narrative and most of the news sources are not very objective. However, in my mind, automatic rejection of "the news" is almost the opposite problem, which is at least as big as the false narrative issue. I have no solutions to offer for any of these problems, but maybe we can at least agree that Russian Federal Statistics Service numbers give us a rough estimate. Trusting your "own empirical evidence", rejecting "the news" is the bubble that I have been talking about. At least to me it looks like a bubble. And I am not saying that I don't live in a bubble, because I do. It takes effort and time to learn all the different sides of the argument, collect facts, etc. so it not possible to do it for all the issues. On the other hand, I completely agree there are good reasons not to trust "the news" blindly or even Russian State Statistics. We need to have some sort of middle way were we do not dismiss arguments just because they are in "the news", but at the same time take a critical look. "Russia begins where asphalt roads end" :) there are always some truth in jokes. "never seen indoor plumbing" could be an exaggeration, but my intuition (my "own empirical evidence" if you will) tells me that the gist of it is true. I have been to Russia and seen Moscow in all of its fanciness. However, further away from Moscow, Saint Petersburg the picture is quite bleak. But that's just my 2 cents. [some edits were made for style and grammar]