5 ms·

What I'm confused by is why the telco needs twitter to get that info. I work for a data warehousing/sql consultancy and our biggest client is telco's who have t

What I'm confused by is why the telco needs twitter to get that info. I work for a data warehousing/sql consultancy and our biggest client is telco's who have to track everyone in order to comply with subpoenas. They already have all the data about where every one of their users has been.

chrononaut 4y ago
> our biggest client is telco's who have to track everyone in order to comply with subpoenas. Perhaps I am missing something, but I don't understand the intersection of why telco's are involved in serving subpoenas and the need to know the physical location of users. Are you referring to a log of networks / DHCP leases their customers were using at any given time?
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  Not serving subpoenas, responding to them. Police subpoena stuff like "everyone who was within x feet of this phone number or location between these times" and the telcos can't just say "we don't keep that data."
  - DoneWithAllThat 4y ago
    …why not? Is there a federal law compelling then to record and store precise location data indefinitely?
    - colinmhayes 4y ago
      I'm not sure if it's a legal requirement or they just don't want to upset law enforcement. I guess maybe they're just keeping the data for other reasons and then law enforcement is jumping on that. All I know is they're using our data warehouse and having me write queries that answer those subpoenas when they come in. Well I know that in the UK it is a legal requirement, but not sure about the US.
  - novok 4y ago
    Subpoenas are based on information you have. Where is the law or regulation that says they need to keep it? Telcos keep it because it helps them with network capacity planning and is incredibility financially lucrative when they want to sell the data. It's probably more to fill in their data product for malls and fine grained location than to do it for subpoenas, which if they had a choice would probably rather not have to do.
  - landemva 4y ago
    > the telcos can't just say "we don't keep that data." Not sure what country you are in, though that is untrue in USA. Businesses keep whatever business records they desire, and some required regulatory/personnel data. Even if they have the data a USA attorney can try to argue that the request is unduly burdensome or too broad and ask court to quash subpoena.
- djbusby 4y ago
  And CDR and LUD. Call Data Records (numbers, time, duration) and Local Usage Detail (they use "LUDs" on TV)
Arwill 4y ago
The way i understood it, they wanted to track their competitors users.
amitamit 4y ago
The "native" location data that Telcos have is not very precise - think of accuracy of a few city blocks. That is good enough precision for traditional subpoenas, but not for the kind of application the author described. Also telcos only have data for their customers - this gets them access to competitors' customers.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  > The "native" location data that Telcos have is not very precise Was not very precise. One of the "advantages" of 5G is a lot higher resolution for telcos. And I think even 4G was superior to "a few city blocks" > telcos only have data for their customers - this gets them access to competitors' customers. And this is the true reason for the request.
  - beauzero 4y ago
    With 4G the problem has been "what lane are you in?". One of the things that can be done with that data... If you can figure out what lane a user is in, you can target (visually) digital billboards to that lane, covering all lanes with different images/ads, through some weird refraction. I knew of a company that was working on that problem 8-10 years ago out of the South. No idea if they solved the problem.
    - ancientworldnow 4y ago
      The screen has been figured out. Misapplied Sciences is already installing these screens in airports for a trial program with Delta.
      - at-fates-hands 4y ago
        Are you talking about this? A mind-bending digital info screen, developed in partnership with Misapplied Sciences and dubbed Parallel Reality, will debut in beta form on June 29 near the Delta Sky Club in Concourse A of the McNamara Terminal. According to a news release, numerous passengers can look at the same screen at once, and each passenger will see personalized flight information that the other people looking at the screen will not see, because they'll be looking at their own personalized flight info. The Parallel Reality display conveys the same sort of stuff you find on traditional airport screens—about departure times, gate numbers, baggage carousel locations, and so on—but you don't have to scan lists of data because the screen semi-magically shows you only what you're looking for, while up to 100 other people are simultaneously looking at the same screen semi-magically showing them what they're looking for. https://www.frommers.com/blogs/passportable/blog_posts/delta-s-new-airport-screens-can-show-100-people-different-views-simultaneously https://www.frommers.com/blogs/passportable/blog_posts/delta...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
WWLink 4y ago
Not trying to defend the telcos, but I think they're trying to figure out where to prioritize upgrading their infrastructure based on where their customers spend most of their time - and more importantly, where their COMPETITORS' CUSTOMERS spend most of their time. If they know that, they can target those areas and then heavily advertise that they have better service than their competitors in those areas lol. Historically they could do that by old fashioned research and surveying. But that's expensive. I imagine getting this data from everyones' phones is a lot cheaper and easier. If that's the case, I don't think their desire is necessarily _evil_, but very misguided lol.
landemva 4y ago
> telco's who have to track everyone in order to comply with subpoenas. Subpoenas are used to compel production of existing information. Speculatively creating info to comply with future theoretical request is not necessary. It's easier to not have the info and truthfully respond to subpoena with "no such data".
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  In the UK they are legally required to keep the data in order to respond to law enforcement requests. My understanding is that in the US they’re not required to, but at least the ones I work with do for whatever reason.

chrononaut 4y ago

> our biggest client is telco's who have to track everyone in order to comply with subpoenas. Perhaps I am missing something, but I don't understand the intersection of why telco's are involved in serving subpoenas and the need to know the physical location of users. Are you referring to a log of networks / DHCP leases their customers were using at any given time?

colinmhayes 4y ago
Not serving subpoenas, responding to them. Police subpoena stuff like "everyone who was within x feet of this phone number or location between these times" and the telcos can't just say "we don't keep that data."
- DoneWithAllThat 4y ago
  …why not? Is there a federal law compelling then to record and store precise location data indefinitely?
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    I'm not sure if it's a legal requirement or they just don't want to upset law enforcement. I guess maybe they're just keeping the data for other reasons and then law enforcement is jumping on that. All I know is they're using our data warehouse and having me write queries that answer those subpoenas when they come in. Well I know that in the UK it is a legal requirement, but not sure about the US.
- novok 4y ago
  Subpoenas are based on information you have. Where is the law or regulation that says they need to keep it? Telcos keep it because it helps them with network capacity planning and is incredibility financially lucrative when they want to sell the data. It's probably more to fill in their data product for malls and fine grained location than to do it for subpoenas, which if they had a choice would probably rather not have to do.
- landemva 4y ago
  > the telcos can't just say "we don't keep that data." Not sure what country you are in, though that is untrue in USA. Businesses keep whatever business records they desire, and some required regulatory/personnel data. Even if they have the data a USA attorney can try to argue that the request is unduly burdensome or too broad and ask court to quash subpoena.
djbusby 4y ago
And CDR and LUD. Call Data Records (numbers, time, duration) and Local Usage Detail (they use "LUDs" on TV)

Arwill 4y ago

The way i understood it, they wanted to track their competitors users.

amitamit 4y ago

The "native" location data that Telcos have is not very precise - think of accuracy of a few city blocks. That is good enough precision for traditional subpoenas, but not for the kind of application the author described. Also telcos only have data for their customers - this gets them access to competitors' customers.

HWR_14 4y ago
> The "native" location data that Telcos have is not very precise Was not very precise. One of the "advantages" of 5G is a lot higher resolution for telcos. And I think even 4G was superior to "a few city blocks" > telcos only have data for their customers - this gets them access to competitors' customers. And this is the true reason for the request.
- beauzero 4y ago
  With 4G the problem has been "what lane are you in?". One of the things that can be done with that data... If you can figure out what lane a user is in, you can target (visually) digital billboards to that lane, covering all lanes with different images/ads, through some weird refraction. I knew of a company that was working on that problem 8-10 years ago out of the South. No idea if they solved the problem.
  - ancientworldnow 4y ago
    The screen has been figured out. Misapplied Sciences is already installing these screens in airports for a trial program with Delta.
    - at-fates-hands 4y ago
      Are you talking about this? A mind-bending digital info screen, developed in partnership with Misapplied Sciences and dubbed Parallel Reality, will debut in beta form on June 29 near the Delta Sky Club in Concourse A of the McNamara Terminal. According to a news release, numerous passengers can look at the same screen at once, and each passenger will see personalized flight information that the other people looking at the screen will not see, because they'll be looking at their own personalized flight info. The Parallel Reality display conveys the same sort of stuff you find on traditional airport screens—about departure times, gate numbers, baggage carousel locations, and so on—but you don't have to scan lists of data because the screen semi-magically shows you only what you're looking for, while up to 100 other people are simultaneously looking at the same screen semi-magically showing them what they're looking for. https://www.frommers.com/blogs/passportable/blog_posts/delta-s-new-airport-screens-can-show-100-people-different-views-simultaneously https://www.frommers.com/blogs/passportable/blog_posts/delta...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

WWLink 4y ago

Not trying to defend the telcos, but I think they're trying to figure out where to prioritize upgrading their infrastructure based on where their customers spend most of their time - and more importantly, where their COMPETITORS' CUSTOMERS spend most of their time. If they know that, they can target those areas and then heavily advertise that they have better service than their competitors in those areas lol. Historically they could do that by old fashioned research and surveying. But that's expensive. I imagine getting this data from everyones' phones is a lot cheaper and easier. If that's the case, I don't think their desire is necessarily _evil_, but very misguided lol.

landemva 4y ago

> telco's who have to track everyone in order to comply with subpoenas. Subpoenas are used to compel production of existing information. Speculatively creating info to comply with future theoretical request is not necessary. It's easier to not have the info and truthfully respond to subpoena with "no such data".

colinmhayes 4y ago
In the UK they are legally required to keep the data in order to respond to law enforcement requests. My understanding is that in the US they’re not required to, but at least the ones I work with do for whatever reason.