5 ms·

As always, I'm happy to answer any questions around this (though the blog post pretty much covers it!).

by nrp 4y ago

newaccount74 4y ago
I'd love to hear an example of what such a certification test failure would look like. I have no experience with hardware, so I have no idea what kind of tests you would do.
OJFord 4y ago
Anything you can share about the actual process of getting it certified, from say (I assume much earlier) 'we think this is ok' to certified? I assume it's not self-certification (like CE) from the phrasing, so you sent some units off somewhere? Was there much back and forth with changes required, or was it purely administrative and from a technical standpoint the earlier units are just as compliant?
- nrp 4y ago
  Thunderbolt documents are behind NDAs (as far as I know), but you can get a good feel for the types of testing required by checking out the USB-IF Compliance Test Specifications: https://www.usb.org/documents https://www.usb.org/documents Thunderbolt is basically a superset of that.
gibsonf1 4y ago
Do you plan to make a 15" 4K version? (I'm patiently waiting...)
- adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
  Why? at 15" 1440p is higher res than 5k for a 32" display. It will just eat extra power.
  - gibsonf1 4y ago
    Its for graphics intensive work that the high res is needed, and 15" as minimum size on the road for graphics.
    - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
      I totally understand 15" screen size, but unless you have your eyes right up against the screen I highly doubt you are going to see a difference between 1440p and 4k. If you're dealing with graphics on a laptop screen you probably should be zoomed in anyway.
      - gibsonf1 4y ago
        Indeed, the difference is dramatic without eyes close.
      - neurostimulant 4y ago
        > unless you have your eyes right up against the screen I've often see graphics people doing this when inspecting their works though. Maybe they're up to something here.
      - manigandham 4y ago
        I can see a massive difference. And more visual space is always welcome.
  - shalmanese 4y ago
    You typically use a 15" laptop screen at a closer distance than a 32" 5K display.
- PaulWaldman 4y ago
  Similar, I'd really be interested in a 15/16 inch HiDPI model that sticks with with P series CPUs. This would hopefully allow for a bigger battery and better cooling than the existing model. Other vendors offer this, but with H series CPUs which seem to throttle quite a bit.
Rebelgecko 4y ago
Congrats on the TB4 certification! If you're ready to talk about it, I'd love to hear more about the battery life improvements hinted at in the blog post. Battery drain when suspended is probably my #1 QOL issue with Linux on a 12th Gen framework (closely followed by the mutual exclusivity of the brightness keys and the light sensor).
- nrp 4y ago
  We'll be writing a more detailed blog post, but basically it involves forcing the retimers into a suspend state when they should be suspended in more cases. In theory, this should happen anyway, but we're apparently hitting some edge cases on the retimer behavior currently that prevents proper suspend in some cases.
as1mov 4y ago
Not related to this, but were there any improvements planned for a power loss during sleep on Linux (also possibly mentioning it on the product page)? A laptop losing 40% of it's battery while it's suspended isn't really nice. I know there are work-arounds but this is something I would assume would work out of the box. I've sold my Framework laptop for now, and gone back to my old cheap trusty Dell machine. It would be nice if you guys manage to take a shot at a laptop more inspired by the Thinkpads/Latitudes rather than the Apple devices.
- nrp 4y ago
  The firmware update mentioned in the blog post includes some improvements related to retimer suspend behavior on both 11th Gen and 12th Gen units that should improve suspend battery life on Linux.
  - zmk5 4y ago
    Thanks for the update on that! Do you have any numbers at the improvement we will likely see with this firmware release Nirav?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
spiffytech 4y ago
I didn't expect this to be something where all of the failures could be fixed in firmware. I don't know anything about the subject, I just would have thought it'd require hardware changes.
kkielhofner 4y ago
Are there any plans to get at least some of the BIOS fixes to the 11th gen? I know it wasn’t sold as Thunderbolt compliant but the experience is pretty rough and I would appreciate anything that could offer hope to address some of the issues I’ve had.
kayson 4y ago
You may want to add information about the display to your product pages; I had to dive into the user manual to find it, It's a very important spec to omit...
newaccount2021 4y ago
javajosh 4y ago
What specifically was the problem with the 11th gen boards? Do you have a list of the TB4 tests that passed and failed?
noveltyaccount 4y ago
Things I'd love to see, in no particular order: AMD option, dedicated graphics, 360° hinge with touchscreen and/or pen digitizer.
spartanatreyu 4y ago
A question for laptop manufacturers in general and a variation just for you: The general question: Why do you make laptop keyboards with the up and down buttons smooshed together? The up and down buttons are the two most used buttons on my keyboards. I cannot use a regular laptop for more than 30 seconds without becoming incredibly frustrated and I'm certain that I'm not alone. I'm entirely convinced that half of all ThinkPad laptop sales are because they allow space for their arrow keys to not be smooshed together. --------------- And a question for you: What would it take for Framework laptops to go the ThinkPad approach with their keyboards?
duck 4y ago
Does it really cost you $9 to ship one of these? It is probably Amazon's fault, but it just kills me to pay that much for shipping (although I'm fine w/ paying some reasonable amount for shipping).
- relaxing 4y ago
  You think $9 is too much to ship something the size of a laptop box?
  - duck 4y ago
    Yeah, I now realize I was commenting on the wrong thing... but I was talking the expansion cards themselves. They're 8g. I'm totally fine with whatever the laptop costs to ship, but I'm not a fan of the Marketplace shipping fees.
Terretta 4y ago
> "Thunderbolt 4 certified on all four Expansion Card bays" is different from "now have 4 Thunderbolt 4 ports" Setting aside power, how many independent full bandwidth TB4 devices can run at once?

As always, I'm happy to answer any questions around this (though the blog post pretty much covers it!).

by nrp 4y ago

As always, I'm happy to answer any questions around this (though the blog post pretty much covers it!).

I'd love to hear an example of what such a certification test failure would look like. I have no experience with hardware, so I have no idea what kind of tests you would do.

OJFord 4y ago

Anything you can share about the actual process of getting it certified, from say (I assume much earlier) 'we think this is ok' to certified? I assume it's not self-certification (like CE) from the phrasing, so you sent some units off somewhere? Was there much back and forth with changes required, or was it purely administrative and from a technical standpoint the earlier units are just as compliant?

nrp 4y ago
Thunderbolt documents are behind NDAs (as far as I know), but you can get a good feel for the types of testing required by checking out the USB-IF Compliance Test Specifications: https://www.usb.org/documents https://www.usb.org/documents Thunderbolt is basically a superset of that.

gibsonf1 4y ago

Do you plan to make a 15" 4K version? (I'm patiently waiting...)

adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
Why? at 15" 1440p is higher res than 5k for a 32" display. It will just eat extra power.
- gibsonf1 4y ago
  Its for graphics intensive work that the high res is needed, and 15" as minimum size on the road for graphics.
  - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
    I totally understand 15" screen size, but unless you have your eyes right up against the screen I highly doubt you are going to see a difference between 1440p and 4k. If you're dealing with graphics on a laptop screen you probably should be zoomed in anyway.
    - gibsonf1 4y ago
      Indeed, the difference is dramatic without eyes close.
    - neurostimulant 4y ago
      > unless you have your eyes right up against the screen I've often see graphics people doing this when inspecting their works though. Maybe they're up to something here.
    - manigandham 4y ago
      I can see a massive difference. And more visual space is always welcome.
- shalmanese 4y ago
  You typically use a 15" laptop screen at a closer distance than a 32" 5K display.
PaulWaldman 4y ago
Similar, I'd really be interested in a 15/16 inch HiDPI model that sticks with with P series CPUs. This would hopefully allow for a bigger battery and better cooling than the existing model. Other vendors offer this, but with H series CPUs which seem to throttle quite a bit.

Rebelgecko 4y ago

Congrats on the TB4 certification! If you're ready to talk about it, I'd love to hear more about the battery life improvements hinted at in the blog post. Battery drain when suspended is probably my #1 QOL issue with Linux on a 12th Gen framework (closely followed by the mutual exclusivity of the brightness keys and the light sensor).

nrp 4y ago
We'll be writing a more detailed blog post, but basically it involves forcing the retimers into a suspend state when they should be suspended in more cases. In theory, this should happen anyway, but we're apparently hitting some edge cases on the retimer behavior currently that prevents proper suspend in some cases.

as1mov 4y ago

Not related to this, but were there any improvements planned for a power loss during sleep on Linux (also possibly mentioning it on the product page)? A laptop losing 40% of it's battery while it's suspended isn't really nice. I know there are work-arounds but this is something I would assume would work out of the box. I've sold my Framework laptop for now, and gone back to my old cheap trusty Dell machine. It would be nice if you guys manage to take a shot at a laptop more inspired by the Thinkpads/Latitudes rather than the Apple devices.

nrp 4y ago
The firmware update mentioned in the blog post includes some improvements related to retimer suspend behavior on both 11th Gen and 12th Gen units that should improve suspend battery life on Linux.
- zmk5 4y ago
  Thanks for the update on that! Do you have any numbers at the improvement we will likely see with this firmware release Nirav?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

spiffytech 4y ago

I didn't expect this to be something where all of the failures could be fixed in firmware. I don't know anything about the subject, I just would have thought it'd require hardware changes.

kkielhofner 4y ago

Are there any plans to get at least some of the BIOS fixes to the 11th gen? I know it wasn’t sold as Thunderbolt compliant but the experience is pretty rough and I would appreciate anything that could offer hope to address some of the issues I’ve had.

kayson 4y ago

You may want to add information about the display to your product pages; I had to dive into the user manual to find it, It's a very important spec to omit...

newaccount2021 4y ago

javajosh 4y ago

What specifically was the problem with the 11th gen boards? Do you have a list of the TB4 tests that passed and failed?

noveltyaccount 4y ago

Things I'd love to see, in no particular order: AMD option, dedicated graphics, 360° hinge with touchscreen and/or pen digitizer.

spartanatreyu 4y ago

A question for laptop manufacturers in general and a variation just for you: The general question: Why do you make laptop keyboards with the up and down buttons smooshed together? The up and down buttons are the two most used buttons on my keyboards. I cannot use a regular laptop for more than 30 seconds without becoming incredibly frustrated and I'm certain that I'm not alone. I'm entirely convinced that half of all ThinkPad laptop sales are because they allow space for their arrow keys to not be smooshed together. --------------- And a question for you: What would it take for Framework laptops to go the ThinkPad approach with their keyboards?

duck 4y ago

Does it really cost you $9 to ship one of these? It is probably Amazon's fault, but it just kills me to pay that much for shipping (although I'm fine w/ paying some reasonable amount for shipping).

relaxing 4y ago
You think $9 is too much to ship something the size of a laptop box?
- duck 4y ago
  Yeah, I now realize I was commenting on the wrong thing... but I was talking the expansion cards themselves. They're 8g. I'm totally fine with whatever the laptop costs to ship, but I'm not a fan of the Marketplace shipping fees.

Terretta 4y ago

> "Thunderbolt 4 certified on all four Expansion Card bays" is different from "now have 4 Thunderbolt 4 ports" Setting aside power, how many independent full bandwidth TB4 devices can run at once?