4 ms·

As I read TFA, I thought to myself, "if it gets bad enough, I'll just load Linux on my Macs." And then it occurred to me how I got started using Apple products.

As I read TFA, I thought to myself, "if it gets bad enough, I'll just load Linux on my Macs." And then it occurred to me how I got started using Apple products. So grab a cuppa for story time. It was a time that I worked for Microsoft, and mmm, mmm, wasn't that uncarbonated company soft drink tasty. But as I dicked with some Plays for Sure(tm) device for the last time, I got fed up and told the spouse, "get in the car, we're going to BellSquare to buy iPods." iPods turned into ditching the Windows Phones for iPhones, then a hackintosh to get a feel for OS X Leopard, then "fine, I'll get a MacBook if I'm going to do iOS development on the side". Fast-forward fifteen years, and it's a house full of HomeKit, Apple Watches (loving that new Ultra), MacBooks, HomePods, etc. It all works well together, so it's easy to justify ditching $DEVICE for an Apple product. And when Apple Premium (one price for all of Apple's services such as TV+, iCloud storage, et. al.) came around, well, of course I said "put that on the Apple Card, please." The point I'm driving at is that a household of Apple products started with one simple purchase of a couple of music players. But keep up the advertising crap to the point that I'm loading a non-Apple OS on Apple hardware, and that unravelling thread might take the rest with it. "It all works so well together" is a blessing and a curse. I'm pretty sure that if, whatever the reason, we ditch the iPhones the rest of it goes with them.

lancesells 4y ago
I was a very happy Windows user and purchased legit licenses for myself and my business. I didn't hate the Mac but I had only used it since OS 9 and I felt Windows was much more stable and customizable. Years go by and I find myself not being able to get a Windows XP license to install because my activation code from the box didn't work. I spend 5+ hours talking to all kinds of support. No one can help me get past this activation code. And that was it. I switched everything to Apple. Anything purchased new for myself or my business was Apple. Windows, Microsoft, Xbox, etc. I won't even consider. The only thing I've used that's Microsoft in the last 20+ years is Github. With their present moves, I know my relationship with Apple products will end with a similar sentiment.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Which is hilariously amusing, because FCKGW probably still activates just fine.
  - layer8 4y ago
    FCKGW stopped working with XP SP1.
  - tacker2000 4y ago
    Haha how does the rest go… RHQQ2 ?
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Something like that, back in the day I had it memorized and would use it even when I had purchased a perfectly valid license, too hard to look around at the back of the computer (even with a valid sticker you were supposed to put it in a place that wasn't "removable"). I think the "FCK" made it super memorable.
      - bitwize 4y ago
        FuCKinG Windows
    - gleenn 4y ago
      YXRKP next I think
      - faitswulff 4y ago
        Close, it's YXRKT. Unfortunately that's where my memory ends.
    - prottog 4y ago
      I just typed it out to see if I could remember, despite not having used it in over a decade. It's funny what sticks to your mind.
bombcar 4y ago
I'm not sure what revision of Windows Phone it was (they restarted that thing so often) but there was one with Tiles I believe (looked like the Windows 7 start menu) that was pretty nice. Friend had it; Microsoft really made a HUGE mistake here by not just continuing it for years and years, they'd now have a solid third place offering that could be very business friendly by now if they'd done the standard Microsoft incremental improvement.
- mikestew 4y ago
  Oh, no, we were still on Windows Phone 6.0 at that point. I've still got the device pictured in this article: https://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/mobile-computing/tablets/free-windows-mobile-6-0-upgrades-from-htc-154314 https://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobi... But ignore the device, and notice how the UI looks at lot like a Windows PC desktop of era. Now imagine that against even the earliest of iPhones. Ballmer going on about how the iPhone was going to fail sure aged well. Later versions of Windows Phone would improve on it in a big way, as you point out, but by then it was way too late. Perhaps if they poured more money into it as you suggest, but Microsoft was already paying devs to port their apps, and there were still big holes in the app lineup.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    I think the killer was just how many times they changed what "Windows Phone" was, and they were major breaking changes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile My friend had a Windows Phone 7 device, which was 90000% different from what you have in every way, and not compatible, either. Then they trashed that and tried something else that looked similar but was completely different. Just an entirely broken strategy. You can't kill your few supporters every single generation! It would have been like OS X not being able to run applications from System 7/8/9 or dropping PPC applications entirely on the x86 Macs.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      They had some developers going with Phone 7, half intrigued by the slickness of the 7 OS on the Nokia. (I think it was Nokia?) It didn't help that MS did weird things to Nokia, MSs reputation wasn't very good back then for other reasons too. The Ballmer memos were still recent. Phone 7 was really nice though, way faster than iOS as I recall it and with some cool tiles on the home screen. Then they changed so apps made for 7 didn't work with 8. That was it, the little developer base they had just packed up and left.
echelon 4y ago
> But keep up the advertising crap to the point that I'm loading a non-Apple OS on Apple hardware, and that unravelling thread might take the rest with it. Not everyone can do this or will do this. Apple captured way too much power, and now they're free to boil us all. They basically own American consumer computing and mobile business computing. 51+% of it all, anyway. By taking moves like this, I think it shows the platform is too powerful a market entity and that the government needs to put restrictions on what Apple can and cannot do, and lift Apple's own restrictions against app developers and competing businesses.
- gretch 4y ago
  This is an unsupported hypothesis. I am a big Apple user (iPhone, air tags, air pods, MacBook etc) but I definitely don’t feel “captured” in any way. If their products start sucking then I’m voting with my feet and my wallet. I’d much rather support the market driven approach than to assign this responsibility and authority over to the Govt.
  - echelon 4y ago
    There is little market anymore. You want to reach Americans, you bow to Apple or Google, jump through absurd hoops, and pay a tax for something you don't even want or need. There was nothing wrong with the desktop software model. It's all artificial process now. Manual review, no ability to deploy on your own ("release trains" shouldn't be a thing), unnecessary mandatory engineering work to meet new interface guidelines, required opt-ins to programs that further erode your customer relationship ("login with"). I vastly prefer the government to keep hands off, but in this case we've reached the impenetrable event horizon and need a Deus Ex to restore reasonable competition. Companies should be free to deploy technology to customers without being unduly taxed.
    - brookst 4y ago
      > Companies should be free to deploy technology to customers without being unduly taxed. "Companies except Apple", right? Apple you want to be taxed, in the form of giving up profits that you feel are excessive, but which only grow because more users and developers find the deal valuable. I made a couple of hundred thousand dollars in the App Store. You know how much I would have made without the App Store? Approximately $0. I have no regrets whatsoever, and feel I got plenty of value for the 30% I paid (this was before the 15% rate for SMB).
cco 4y ago
> ...I'll just load Linux on my Macs. Not really an option with M1, no? I know various groups have managed to get something running on Apple silicon, but my impression is that largely this isn't going to be a viable option. I could definitely be wrong.
- runjake 4y ago
  It's close to being a viable option and it's improving rapidly.
- mikestew 4y ago
  Not really an option with M1, no? I'll let you know when I buy one. :-) Nothing but Intel Macs at the moment.
- RealityVoid 4y ago
  The Asahi team have really done a great job, and I get the feeling M1 Linux is poised to be suitable as a daily driver.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  Actually Linux consistently got worse battery life everywhere I've installed it, PCs and Macs. And it often had quirks with things not working workout much fiddling. I may go back someday when I'm retired, with free time on my hands. Or when forced off the easier proprietary OS's by a thousand cuts.
  - Miraste 4y ago
    With laptops it’s best to go with a System76 or a Framework or something else with manufacturer-tested drivers and optimizations, rather than installing on a non-Linux machine. There’s just too much work put into modern power efficiency for a one-size-fits-all OS to match. The most recent run in I had with this was an HP OLED laptop I bought, put Linux on, and found out that the kernel had no ability to adjust brightness on the OLED so it was at maximum all the time. I had to return it.
    - 4y ago
birdyrooster 4y ago
It's hard to see it now but the mobile phone is a dying product category. Apple in a way acknowledged this when they started their pivot to services and the market acknowledged this when they became fixated on whether Apple could maintain revenues for iPhone upgrades (they can't). They are capturing the value they can from iPhone before its completely unprofitable because of new paradigms of computing that Apple themselves will be delivering. Nearly every major change or product release in Apple is well gamed out and planned for 5-10 years in advance, some of these moves longer. Withering the iPhone with Ads is a very deliberate decision and done so on a timetable with many other priorities and strategies. Part of maintaining relevancy is cannibalizing your own business with newer, better ways of delivering value. This is a way that Apple can extract the most profit from their cannibalization of iPhone.
- dwallin 4y ago
  You are giving Apple way too much credit. All it shows is that the team responsible for driving increases to service revenue has been gaining influence relative to the more user-centric teams. These moves are also very dangerously raising their antitrust profile which seems massively short-sighted. Companies this large behave much more like some sort of octopus / slime mold hybrid than a primate and giving them credit as if all the moves are well thought out top down plans is rarely correct.
  - birdyrooster 4y ago
    You've not been paying close enough attention to Apple for the last 25 years and are undervaluing Apple's executive team. Planned execution and road mapping have led Apple to where they are. Methodical and steady.
system16 4y ago
Similar story here. 20 years ago I was a Windows user. I had no love for Windows, but I put up with it. I had never even considered buying a Mac because to me they were just overpriced dumbed down PCs for people who were not technical. I didn't know anything about them. Then I bought an iPod with click wheel. I fell in love with it from the minute I opened the packaging. It just felt like a device that a lot of care was put into. I loved holding it and it was a pleasure to use. It made me rethink Apple. When it was time to buy a new laptop, I bought the 2006 black MacBook. I felt the same thing all over again, but now for my primary computing device. I loved OS X. Fast forward to today and I also have a house full of Apple products. Just in my line of sight I have several Mac laptops, Magic Keyboard/touchpad, a few iPhones, an iPad, AirPods... over the years I've purchased dozens of Apple products. Not to mention my subscriptions to Apple TV+, iCloud Storage, Apple Music... But Apple is increasingly a very different company than before. I now feel like they are nickel and diming me at every possible turn and it's no longer even subtle. When I picked up my iPhone 14 Pro at the Apple Store, I was in disbelief at how hard the Apple Employee tried to upsell Apple Care using hard sell scare tactics. I doubt anything will ever change under Tim Cook. Maybe some day Scott Forstall will return in Jobs-like fashion and correct the company's course.
- nikodunk 4y ago
  Very nice stories. I just switched to Linux on my laptop to avoid all the iCloud ads. Now I'm considering ditching my iPhone too because as you say my laptop and my iPhone no longer work together perfectly anyway. So I have a bunch more options for phones! I'm actively looking into running mainline Linux on a Snapdragon 845 phone, actually: https://nikodunk.com/2022-11-05-gnome-shell-mobile-with-postmarketos https://nikodunk.com/2022-11-05-gnome-shell-mobile-with-post...
  - davidcollantes 4y ago
    You truly switched to Linux to avoid iCloud ads?
- eastbound 4y ago
  Funny how a lot of companies should just hire a designer to become as good as Apple, but that never happens. Companies insist on naming their product WX1000 (hi Sony), or adding a BOM to SOAP requests to make their products incompatible (hi Microsoft). So yes, Apple gear is ultraexpensive, does little, cable breaks and lifelong souvenir photos are locked up in iCloud. Unfortunately, this is still a much better experience than the Linux or Windows world. It’s only a matter of various companies having to do fewer dark patterns to win over the market, but that never happens.
cglong 4y ago
What you're describing was my exact journey. 1. Have Apple everything 2. Through an internship at Microsoft, get a Windows laptop and Windows Phone 3. Fall in love with both experiences 4. Switch to Android 5. Decide my next computer will be a Linux gaming machine Over time, I learned that most parts of the ecosystem can be swapped out for alternatives that are almost as good, but without nearly as much vendor lock-in. As soon as you experience this, the value proposition of Apple comes into question.
sneak 4y ago
Apple is also ramping up the lock-in. You can’t use iOS 16 passkeys without using iCloud and iCloud Keychain. You can’t activate HomePods without an iOS device logged in to iCloud. They really want you to be logged in and identified across all products now and forever.
MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago
I have sort of a reverse story. It was trying to manage an iPod without a Macintosh that swore me off Apple forever. Jobs described iTunes for Windows as "a glass of ice water in hell". From where I was sitting Windows was the ice water.
kashunstva 4y ago
I’d like to say that I have a similar story here, but I skipped the Windows/IBM-PC phase and went straight from TRS-80 to the very first Macintosh. This all feels like a betrayal of the slightly rebellious, iconoclastic attitudes of the early Apple days. But untangling my family from this web of lock-in? Oy. You want to switch to Linux? My spouse, maybe. My 14 y/o, never. And even if I were to succeed, I would have a new full-time job as household IT help desk. For every person who cares about avoiding surveillance capitalism, ads, and distractions, there are ten thousand who shrug their shoulders and keep scrolling.

lancesells 4y ago

I was a very happy Windows user and purchased legit licenses for myself and my business. I didn't hate the Mac but I had only used it since OS 9 and I felt Windows was much more stable and customizable. Years go by and I find myself not being able to get a Windows XP license to install because my activation code from the box didn't work. I spend 5+ hours talking to all kinds of support. No one can help me get past this activation code. And that was it. I switched everything to Apple. Anything purchased new for myself or my business was Apple. Windows, Microsoft, Xbox, etc. I won't even consider. The only thing I've used that's Microsoft in the last 20+ years is Github. With their present moves, I know my relationship with Apple products will end with a similar sentiment.

bombcar 4y ago
Which is hilariously amusing, because FCKGW probably still activates just fine.
- layer8 4y ago
  FCKGW stopped working with XP SP1.
- tacker2000 4y ago
  Haha how does the rest go… RHQQ2 ?
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Something like that, back in the day I had it memorized and would use it even when I had purchased a perfectly valid license, too hard to look around at the back of the computer (even with a valid sticker you were supposed to put it in a place that wasn't "removable"). I think the "FCK" made it super memorable.
    - bitwize 4y ago
      FuCKinG Windows
  - gleenn 4y ago
    YXRKP next I think
    - faitswulff 4y ago
      Close, it's YXRKT. Unfortunately that's where my memory ends.
  - prottog 4y ago
    I just typed it out to see if I could remember, despite not having used it in over a decade. It's funny what sticks to your mind.

bombcar 4y ago

I'm not sure what revision of Windows Phone it was (they restarted that thing so often) but there was one with Tiles I believe (looked like the Windows 7 start menu) that was pretty nice. Friend had it; Microsoft really made a HUGE mistake here by not just continuing it for years and years, they'd now have a solid third place offering that could be very business friendly by now if they'd done the standard Microsoft incremental improvement.

mikestew 4y ago
Oh, no, we were still on Windows Phone 6.0 at that point. I've still got the device pictured in this article: https://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/mobile-computing/tablets/free-windows-mobile-6-0-upgrades-from-htc-154314 https://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobi... But ignore the device, and notice how the UI looks at lot like a Windows PC desktop of era. Now imagine that against even the earliest of iPhones. Ballmer going on about how the iPhone was going to fail sure aged well. Later versions of Windows Phone would improve on it in a big way, as you point out, but by then it was way too late. Perhaps if they poured more money into it as you suggest, but Microsoft was already paying devs to port their apps, and there were still big holes in the app lineup.
- bombcar 4y ago
  I think the killer was just how many times they changed what "Windows Phone" was, and they were major breaking changes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile My friend had a Windows Phone 7 device, which was 90000% different from what you have in every way, and not compatible, either. Then they trashed that and tried something else that looked similar but was completely different. Just an entirely broken strategy. You can't kill your few supporters every single generation! It would have been like OS X not being able to run applications from System 7/8/9 or dropping PPC applications entirely on the x86 Macs.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    They had some developers going with Phone 7, half intrigued by the slickness of the 7 OS on the Nokia. (I think it was Nokia?) It didn't help that MS did weird things to Nokia, MSs reputation wasn't very good back then for other reasons too. The Ballmer memos were still recent. Phone 7 was really nice though, way faster than iOS as I recall it and with some cool tiles on the home screen. Then they changed so apps made for 7 didn't work with 8. That was it, the little developer base they had just packed up and left.

echelon 4y ago

> But keep up the advertising crap to the point that I'm loading a non-Apple OS on Apple hardware, and that unravelling thread might take the rest with it. Not everyone can do this or will do this. Apple captured way too much power, and now they're free to boil us all. They basically own American consumer computing and mobile business computing. 51+% of it all, anyway. By taking moves like this, I think it shows the platform is too powerful a market entity and that the government needs to put restrictions on what Apple can and cannot do, and lift Apple's own restrictions against app developers and competing businesses.

gretch 4y ago
This is an unsupported hypothesis. I am a big Apple user (iPhone, air tags, air pods, MacBook etc) but I definitely don’t feel “captured” in any way. If their products start sucking then I’m voting with my feet and my wallet. I’d much rather support the market driven approach than to assign this responsibility and authority over to the Govt.
- echelon 4y ago
  There is little market anymore. You want to reach Americans, you bow to Apple or Google, jump through absurd hoops, and pay a tax for something you don't even want or need. There was nothing wrong with the desktop software model. It's all artificial process now. Manual review, no ability to deploy on your own ("release trains" shouldn't be a thing), unnecessary mandatory engineering work to meet new interface guidelines, required opt-ins to programs that further erode your customer relationship ("login with"). I vastly prefer the government to keep hands off, but in this case we've reached the impenetrable event horizon and need a Deus Ex to restore reasonable competition. Companies should be free to deploy technology to customers without being unduly taxed.
  - brookst 4y ago
    > Companies should be free to deploy technology to customers without being unduly taxed. "Companies except Apple", right? Apple you want to be taxed, in the form of giving up profits that you feel are excessive, but which only grow because more users and developers find the deal valuable. I made a couple of hundred thousand dollars in the App Store. You know how much I would have made without the App Store? Approximately $0. I have no regrets whatsoever, and feel I got plenty of value for the 30% I paid (this was before the 15% rate for SMB).

cco 4y ago

> ...I'll just load Linux on my Macs. Not really an option with M1, no? I know various groups have managed to get something running on Apple silicon, but my impression is that largely this isn't going to be a viable option. I could definitely be wrong.

runjake 4y ago
It's close to being a viable option and it's improving rapidly.
mikestew 4y ago
Not really an option with M1, no? I'll let you know when I buy one. :-) Nothing but Intel Macs at the moment.
RealityVoid 4y ago
The Asahi team have really done a great job, and I get the feeling M1 Linux is poised to be suitable as a daily driver.
paulryanrogers 4y ago
Actually Linux consistently got worse battery life everywhere I've installed it, PCs and Macs. And it often had quirks with things not working workout much fiddling. I may go back someday when I'm retired, with free time on my hands. Or when forced off the easier proprietary OS's by a thousand cuts.
- Miraste 4y ago
  With laptops it’s best to go with a System76 or a Framework or something else with manufacturer-tested drivers and optimizations, rather than installing on a non-Linux machine. There’s just too much work put into modern power efficiency for a one-size-fits-all OS to match. The most recent run in I had with this was an HP OLED laptop I bought, put Linux on, and found out that the kernel had no ability to adjust brightness on the OLED so it was at maximum all the time. I had to return it.
  - 4y ago

birdyrooster 4y ago

It's hard to see it now but the mobile phone is a dying product category. Apple in a way acknowledged this when they started their pivot to services and the market acknowledged this when they became fixated on whether Apple could maintain revenues for iPhone upgrades (they can't). They are capturing the value they can from iPhone before its completely unprofitable because of new paradigms of computing that Apple themselves will be delivering. Nearly every major change or product release in Apple is well gamed out and planned for 5-10 years in advance, some of these moves longer. Withering the iPhone with Ads is a very deliberate decision and done so on a timetable with many other priorities and strategies. Part of maintaining relevancy is cannibalizing your own business with newer, better ways of delivering value. This is a way that Apple can extract the most profit from their cannibalization of iPhone.

dwallin 4y ago
You are giving Apple way too much credit. All it shows is that the team responsible for driving increases to service revenue has been gaining influence relative to the more user-centric teams. These moves are also very dangerously raising their antitrust profile which seems massively short-sighted. Companies this large behave much more like some sort of octopus / slime mold hybrid than a primate and giving them credit as if all the moves are well thought out top down plans is rarely correct.
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  You've not been paying close enough attention to Apple for the last 25 years and are undervaluing Apple's executive team. Planned execution and road mapping have led Apple to where they are. Methodical and steady.

system16 4y ago

Similar story here. 20 years ago I was a Windows user. I had no love for Windows, but I put up with it. I had never even considered buying a Mac because to me they were just overpriced dumbed down PCs for people who were not technical. I didn't know anything about them. Then I bought an iPod with click wheel. I fell in love with it from the minute I opened the packaging. It just felt like a device that a lot of care was put into. I loved holding it and it was a pleasure to use. It made me rethink Apple. When it was time to buy a new laptop, I bought the 2006 black MacBook. I felt the same thing all over again, but now for my primary computing device. I loved OS X. Fast forward to today and I also have a house full of Apple products. Just in my line of sight I have several Mac laptops, Magic Keyboard/touchpad, a few iPhones, an iPad, AirPods... over the years I've purchased dozens of Apple products. Not to mention my subscriptions to Apple TV+, iCloud Storage, Apple Music... But Apple is increasingly a very different company than before. I now feel like they are nickel and diming me at every possible turn and it's no longer even subtle. When I picked up my iPhone 14 Pro at the Apple Store, I was in disbelief at how hard the Apple Employee tried to upsell Apple Care using hard sell scare tactics. I doubt anything will ever change under Tim Cook. Maybe some day Scott Forstall will return in Jobs-like fashion and correct the company's course.

nikodunk 4y ago
Very nice stories. I just switched to Linux on my laptop to avoid all the iCloud ads. Now I'm considering ditching my iPhone too because as you say my laptop and my iPhone no longer work together perfectly anyway. So I have a bunch more options for phones! I'm actively looking into running mainline Linux on a Snapdragon 845 phone, actually: https://nikodunk.com/2022-11-05-gnome-shell-mobile-with-postmarketos https://nikodunk.com/2022-11-05-gnome-shell-mobile-with-post...
- davidcollantes 4y ago
  You truly switched to Linux to avoid iCloud ads?
eastbound 4y ago
Funny how a lot of companies should just hire a designer to become as good as Apple, but that never happens. Companies insist on naming their product WX1000 (hi Sony), or adding a BOM to SOAP requests to make their products incompatible (hi Microsoft). So yes, Apple gear is ultraexpensive, does little, cable breaks and lifelong souvenir photos are locked up in iCloud. Unfortunately, this is still a much better experience than the Linux or Windows world. It’s only a matter of various companies having to do fewer dark patterns to win over the market, but that never happens.

cglong 4y ago

What you're describing was my exact journey. 1. Have Apple everything 2. Through an internship at Microsoft, get a Windows laptop and Windows Phone 3. Fall in love with both experiences 4. Switch to Android 5. Decide my next computer will be a Linux gaming machine Over time, I learned that most parts of the ecosystem can be swapped out for alternatives that are almost as good, but without nearly as much vendor lock-in. As soon as you experience this, the value proposition of Apple comes into question.

sneak 4y ago

Apple is also ramping up the lock-in. You can’t use iOS 16 passkeys without using iCloud and iCloud Keychain. You can’t activate HomePods without an iOS device logged in to iCloud. They really want you to be logged in and identified across all products now and forever.

MetaWhirledPeas 4y ago

I have sort of a reverse story. It was trying to manage an iPod without a Macintosh that swore me off Apple forever. Jobs described iTunes for Windows as "a glass of ice water in hell". From where I was sitting Windows was the ice water.

kashunstva 4y ago

I’d like to say that I have a similar story here, but I skipped the Windows/IBM-PC phase and went straight from TRS-80 to the very first Macintosh. This all feels like a betrayal of the slightly rebellious, iconoclastic attitudes of the early Apple days. But untangling my family from this web of lock-in? Oy. You want to switch to Linux? My spouse, maybe. My 14 y/o, never. And even if I were to succeed, I would have a new full-time job as household IT help desk. For every person who cares about avoiding surveillance capitalism, ads, and distractions, there are ten thousand who shrug their shoulders and keep scrolling.