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People keep using email as the prime example of federation, but email is pretty terrible! I can't communicate with anyone whose address I don't already know. T

People keep using email as the prime example of federation, but email is pretty terrible! I can't communicate with anyone whose address I don't already know. There's no real "discoverability." Many people have multiple email addresses, and I don't know whether I'm communicating with the correct one, or even whether more exist that I don't know about. If an email address stops working, it just... stops working. Emails bounce back (if I'm lucky!) with no easy or standard way to say why, or what address to use instead. I could go on. Email is great for point-to-point communication, modulo some of the issues listed above, but that's a very limited use case, not at all comparable to most social media. It's a poor replacement for Twitter, for example.

simfree 4y ago
Browsing the federated timeline, searching by hashtag and looking at who other people you know are following is the discoveability mechanism. Unlike Twitter, ActivityPub sites generally don't beat you over the head with follow recommendations. The goal is not to get you mentally addicted to spending hours a day on Social Media.
- skybrian 4y ago
  That doesn't help at all for following a particular person. (For example, consider finding the account of a band that you already know.) A Google search is probably the most common discovery mechanism. Once people start putting their Mastodon addresses on their web pages, it will start getting easier.
  - simfree 4y ago
    Google has terrible indexing of Fediverse posts. Your better off just using a large instance to search from.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  I was actually describing issues with email, but yes, many of the same issues apply to mastodon as well.
rakoo 4y ago
The whole point of federation is that you don't need a central authorization to do what you want. Discoverability is only easy with centralization. Of course it won't work as well. The fediverse is young. Don't expect a finished product when there has been so few man-hours and so little funidng put into it.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  Mastodon has been around for six years, which is young but not infant-young, and what I'm getting at is pretty central to the entire concept. If it is still this poor of an experience six years in, one might wonder what is going to change in the next six.
  - rakoo 4y ago
    No, it's not central. Discoverability of the entire universe is not a goal of any fediverse tool; the goal is to put back communities in the hands of users. Diackverability happens by talking to people, asking your way around, following interesting accounts from afar, being part of the discussion and organically grow your network. If you search for Twitter2, the fediverse is not it.
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      Every IRC server or Discord server I ever joined, I joined because there was something there to which I wanted access, or an existing community I discovered another way, and was directed there to fill things out. If either of those things exist for mastodon, I'm not seeing them, and half the people on here are saying, "this isn't twitter go away" while the other half is raving about how exciting it is to be the recipient of "#twittermigration" Which is all very cute, but it does tend to give commenters whiplash, not knowing whether the responses they're going to get are going to be from one side or the other, or both!
      - rakoo 4y ago
        Maybe the things you are interested in do not exist on the fediverse; it's not a problem in itself. It's better to be there than on Twitter, but so be it. Both replies absolutely coexist because of something simple: the fediverse is not Twitter. If you're looking for Twitter2, that's not it. If you're looking to build the fediverse by being a member and contributing to the discussion. You're going in a different universe, learn the rules :)
cyborgx7 4y ago
>I can't communicate with anyone whose address I don't already know. There's no real "discoverability." Many people have multiple email addresses, and I don't know whether I'm communicating with the correct one, or even whether more exist that I don't know about. If an email address stops working, it just... stops working. Emails bounce back (if I'm lucky!) with no easy or standard way to say why, or what address to use instead. I could go on. These all sound like features to me. If I want you to contact me, I will give you my e-mail address. Otherwise, leave me alone.

simfree 4y ago

Browsing the federated timeline, searching by hashtag and looking at who other people you know are following is the discoveability mechanism. Unlike Twitter, ActivityPub sites generally don't beat you over the head with follow recommendations. The goal is not to get you mentally addicted to spending hours a day on Social Media.

skybrian 4y ago
That doesn't help at all for following a particular person. (For example, consider finding the account of a band that you already know.) A Google search is probably the most common discovery mechanism. Once people start putting their Mastodon addresses on their web pages, it will start getting easier.
- simfree 4y ago
  Google has terrible indexing of Fediverse posts. Your better off just using a large instance to search from.
pwinnski 4y ago
I was actually describing issues with email, but yes, many of the same issues apply to mastodon as well.

rakoo 4y ago

The whole point of federation is that you don't need a central authorization to do what you want. Discoverability is only easy with centralization. Of course it won't work as well. The fediverse is young. Don't expect a finished product when there has been so few man-hours and so little funidng put into it.

pwinnski 4y ago
Mastodon has been around for six years, which is young but not infant-young, and what I'm getting at is pretty central to the entire concept. If it is still this poor of an experience six years in, one might wonder what is going to change in the next six.
- rakoo 4y ago
  No, it's not central. Discoverability of the entire universe is not a goal of any fediverse tool; the goal is to put back communities in the hands of users. Diackverability happens by talking to people, asking your way around, following interesting accounts from afar, being part of the discussion and organically grow your network. If you search for Twitter2, the fediverse is not it.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    Every IRC server or Discord server I ever joined, I joined because there was something there to which I wanted access, or an existing community I discovered another way, and was directed there to fill things out. If either of those things exist for mastodon, I'm not seeing them, and half the people on here are saying, "this isn't twitter go away" while the other half is raving about how exciting it is to be the recipient of "#twittermigration" Which is all very cute, but it does tend to give commenters whiplash, not knowing whether the responses they're going to get are going to be from one side or the other, or both!
    - rakoo 4y ago
      Maybe the things you are interested in do not exist on the fediverse; it's not a problem in itself. It's better to be there than on Twitter, but so be it. Both replies absolutely coexist because of something simple: the fediverse is not Twitter. If you're looking for Twitter2, that's not it. If you're looking to build the fediverse by being a member and contributing to the discussion. You're going in a different universe, learn the rules :)

cyborgx7 4y ago

>I can't communicate with anyone whose address I don't already know. There's no real "discoverability." Many people have multiple email addresses, and I don't know whether I'm communicating with the correct one, or even whether more exist that I don't know about. If an email address stops working, it just... stops working. Emails bounce back (if I'm lucky!) with no easy or standard way to say why, or what address to use instead. I could go on. These all sound like features to me. If I want you to contact me, I will give you my e-mail address. Otherwise, leave me alone.