4 ms·

> women are much more likely than men to die or be seriously injured in a car crash I don't think that's right, at least not as stated? Many more men die in c

by jefftk 4y ago

> women are much more likely than men to die or be seriously injured in a car crash I don't think that's right, at least not as stated? Many more men die in car crashes than women: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/810853 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... Men tend to be in crashes that are more severe than women, though, probably because men are more likely to speed and drive drunk. If you try to look at crashes of equal severity (which is always a bit fraught since you don't have a real control group) then you do see something like what you're describing, though the NHTSA thinks this is mostly due to how robust men vs women are on average and not car design: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811766.PDF http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811766.PDF

Sakos 4y ago
The key point is that in the same situation, women are more likely to be injured from what I understand.
- mathieuh 4y ago
  Maybe they were injured instead of killed?
- taeric 4y ago
  It does sound somewhat dodgy, though; as it implies they throw out the fatality data. Would love to see the data.
  - Sharlin 4y ago
    More men than women die conditional on being in a crash, because men tend to be involved in more severe crashes. But in crashes "of similar severity" women tend to be more severely injured than men. One confounding variable is the size of the vehicle, but it may be factored into the "similar severity" calculation.
watwut 4y ago
Men also drive more. Taxi drivers, truck drives, cops, all those professions are male dominated. And at least where I live, it is man drive family car to work and woman is more likely to go by public transport to work. Man is more likely to be the one to drive when family goes somewhere (and some are quite territorial about it).
Sharlin 4y ago
Natural language is always ambiguous, but it is very reasonable to interpret "women are much more likely than men to die or be seriously injured in a car crash" as P(death_or_injury | crash AND female) > P(death_or_injury | crash AND male) That is, women are more likely to die or be seriously injured CONDITIONAL ON being in a crash. So it is irrelevant that more men than women are injured in total.
- jefftk 4y ago
  Conditional on being in a crash men are probably still more likely to be killed or injured, because the crashes men are in tend to be more severe (often due to their driving decisions).
  - magicalist 4y ago
    > Conditional on being in a crash men are probably still more likely to be killed or injured Sounds like the "probably" here is a guess?
    - lesuorac 4y ago
      Young + Male is a great way to increase your car insurance [1]. I think it's safe to say car insurance's cost is reflective of risk (cost) with a more serious accident costing more than a less serious. CDC also states that men get into fatal accidents much more often (2x) than females [2]. [1]: https://www.moneygeek.com/insurance/auto/rates-by-age-and-gender/ https://www.moneygeek.com/insurance/auto/rates-by-age-and-ge... [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/teen_drivers/teendr...
      - magicalist 4y ago
        No, that says "motor vehicle death rate for male drivers aged 16–19 was over two times higher than the death rate for female drivers of the same age". You're rehashing the above conditional probability discussion.
pwinnski 4y ago
In a car crash, that is, per crash, women are much more likely than men to die or be seriously injured. Men are involved in many, many more crashes overall, but in a car crash, cars are currently designed to protect men better than women. The indefinite article is doing a lot of work there.
- Sharlin 4y ago
  Conditional on being in a crash, men are more likely to die due to being involved in more severe crashes. But ceteris paribus, women tend to be more easily injured.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    Literally the first sentence in the article says, "Compared to men, women are 17 percent more likely to die in a car crash and 73 percent more likely to sustain serious injuries in a front-end collision."
    - jefftk 4y ago
      The article does say that, but the article is simplifying. If you click through they're citing https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811766 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... which says 17% "given similar physical insults". But conditional on being in a crash is not the same thing as conditional on being in a crash of a given severity.
themaninthedark 4y ago
I remember hearing somewhere that a number of the men involved in "speed and drunk" crashes are going through financial issues, life insurance doesn't pay out if you commit suicide but it does if you crash into a bridge at 100mph.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Life insurance does typically pay out in case of suicide after a 1-2 year cliff. It's a health issue like any other. I doubt those instances are conscious financial decisions. Suicide methods are highly correlated to the methods people have at their disposal... and cars are for many, the most dangerous item they have.
  - runnerup 4y ago
    Life insurance often does but sometimes has a 2 year waiting period before it does. AD&D is a separate policy on top of life insurance, often worth an equal amount, which does not pay out in cases of suicide. So masking a suicide can double payments to the family. AD&D also does not pay out in deaths involving toxic substances or “reckless driving”.

by jefftk 4y ago

Sakos 4y ago

The key point is that in the same situation, women are more likely to be injured from what I understand.

mathieuh 4y ago
Maybe they were injured instead of killed?
taeric 4y ago
It does sound somewhat dodgy, though; as it implies they throw out the fatality data. Would love to see the data.
- Sharlin 4y ago
  More men than women die conditional on being in a crash, because men tend to be involved in more severe crashes. But in crashes "of similar severity" women tend to be more severely injured than men. One confounding variable is the size of the vehicle, but it may be factored into the "similar severity" calculation.

watwut 4y ago

Men also drive more. Taxi drivers, truck drives, cops, all those professions are male dominated. And at least where I live, it is man drive family car to work and woman is more likely to go by public transport to work. Man is more likely to be the one to drive when family goes somewhere (and some are quite territorial about it).

Sharlin 4y ago

Natural language is always ambiguous, but it is very reasonable to interpret "women are much more likely than men to die or be seriously injured in a car crash" as P(death_or_injury | crash AND female) > P(death_or_injury | crash AND male) That is, women are more likely to die or be seriously injured CONDITIONAL ON being in a crash. So it is irrelevant that more men than women are injured in total.

jefftk 4y ago
Conditional on being in a crash men are probably still more likely to be killed or injured, because the crashes men are in tend to be more severe (often due to their driving decisions).
- magicalist 4y ago
  > Conditional on being in a crash men are probably still more likely to be killed or injured Sounds like the "probably" here is a guess?
  - lesuorac 4y ago
    Young + Male is a great way to increase your car insurance [1]. I think it's safe to say car insurance's cost is reflective of risk (cost) with a more serious accident costing more than a less serious. CDC also states that men get into fatal accidents much more often (2x) than females [2]. [1]: https://www.moneygeek.com/insurance/auto/rates-by-age-and-gender/ https://www.moneygeek.com/insurance/auto/rates-by-age-and-ge... [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/teen_drivers/teendr...
    - magicalist 4y ago
      No, that says "motor vehicle death rate for male drivers aged 16–19 was over two times higher than the death rate for female drivers of the same age". You're rehashing the above conditional probability discussion.

pwinnski 4y ago

In a car crash, that is, per crash, women are much more likely than men to die or be seriously injured. Men are involved in many, many more crashes overall, but in a car crash, cars are currently designed to protect men better than women. The indefinite article is doing a lot of work there.

Sharlin 4y ago
Conditional on being in a crash, men are more likely to die due to being involved in more severe crashes. But ceteris paribus, women tend to be more easily injured.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  Literally the first sentence in the article says, "Compared to men, women are 17 percent more likely to die in a car crash and 73 percent more likely to sustain serious injuries in a front-end collision."
  - jefftk 4y ago
    The article does say that, but the article is simplifying. If you click through they're citing https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811766 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... which says 17% "given similar physical insults". But conditional on being in a crash is not the same thing as conditional on being in a crash of a given severity.

themaninthedark 4y ago

I remember hearing somewhere that a number of the men involved in "speed and drunk" crashes are going through financial issues, life insurance doesn't pay out if you commit suicide but it does if you crash into a bridge at 100mph.

kube-system 4y ago
Life insurance does typically pay out in case of suicide after a 1-2 year cliff. It's a health issue like any other. I doubt those instances are conscious financial decisions. Suicide methods are highly correlated to the methods people have at their disposal... and cars are for many, the most dangerous item they have.
- runnerup 4y ago
  Life insurance often does but sometimes has a 2 year waiting period before it does. AD&D is a separate policy on top of life insurance, often worth an equal amount, which does not pay out in cases of suicide. So masking a suicide can double payments to the family. AD&D also does not pay out in deaths involving toxic substances or “reckless driving”.