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Disclaimer: I worked at MSFT in the past. I think it depends on whose perspective you're talking about. For some people it'll be overblown. In my case, I don'

Disclaimer: I worked at MSFT in the past. I think it depends on whose perspective you're talking about. For some people it'll be overblown. In my case, I don't really like what MSFT has been doing with their OS. It's clear for years now that they are intent on creating some form of ads platform and they'll likely do it in a way that is directly integrated with the OS. You can't even install Windows 11 without a Microsoft account (so they obviously have a way to identify you). This seems in line with what Apple seems to be planning for their own platform [0]. All of these companies will claim they'll build something in a privacy-conscious manner, which might be true. The question I ask myself is: Am I comfortable with that? Even if it has privacy safeguards, I am not. I'm not willing pay $130 for a Windows license AND have ads presented to me. If Microsoft said they were going to offer a freemium model, where people that don't wanna pay for the OS will get ads I'd be fine. I'd just pay for the license to get rid of all ad tech and the respective tracking. But regarding the future, I have no idea. I don't think there's any stopping this anymore. The only way would be for governments to get their shit together and regulate this space. The only way to keep your privacy IMO is to choose "pain": - Move to an OS that won't track you (Linux, *BSD, etc) – I don't care what Linux zealots say, the Desktop experience is still not even close to what Windows and macOS offer - Avoid being online as much as possible and when you are, use tools to mask your presence [0] https://digiday.com/media/apple-is-building-a-demand-side-platform/ https://digiday.com/media/apple-is-building-a-demand-side-pl...

grammers 4y ago
> The question I ask myself is: Am I comfortable with that? Even if it has privacy safeguards, I am not. I'm not willing pay $130 for a Windows license AND have ads presented to me. Exactly this. It's bad enough if it's free, you are the product. But if you pay, it definitely must not be this way. That's the worst form of capitalism in tech.
- HomePhone 4y ago
  Advertising to paid users. Apple, Twitter, Microsoft, Google already do this. I don’t think it’ll end. It will become normal.
- vezycash 4y ago
  >It's bad enough if it's free, you are the product. But if you pay, it definitely must not be this way. That's the worst form of capitalism in tech. Microsoft has IOS and Android envy. They've been trying unsuccessfully to make Windows store successful like their mobile counterparts but they keep picking the wrong reasons for their continuous failures. I've used the "Microsoft account" since windows 8 without benefit. I still had to to manually sign-in to the store, the store was super slow, apps would not install for random reasons, it'd ask me to relogin at random times, the store couldn't automatically check if the internet connection was restored, the store would give meaningless windows-esk error codes, no side loading of store apps was possible, I still had to login to Microsoft owned apps even though I'd logged in to the OS, store apps are aliens - look different from normal apps and many shortcuts keys don't work, they randomly close. Basically, the store has / had issues. People will willingly add their emails if there's a benefit to doing so.
vladvasiliu 4y ago
> You can't even install Windows 11 without a Microsoft account Yes you can, even the 22h2 update, although it's of course not self-evident. If you say you want to join it to an ActiveDirectory domain (on-prem, not Azure AD), it will ask you to create a local admin account. It will not follow up with the domain join procedure, so you can leave it at that.
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  I could be wrong but isn't this just for Pro and Enterprise editions and not the Home edition? I ask because most systems preloaded with Windows have the home edition.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    Good point, I do not know that. I've only ever touched the Pro edition (which later became Enterprise when joined to a domain).
- _trackno5 4y ago
  Hmm, wonder if it is like the other comment said and you can for the Pro version. I just set up Windows 11 (Home) a few days ago and did not have the option to do that without a MSFT account.
rmellow 4y ago
> You can't even install Windows 11 without a Microsoft account (so they obviously have a way to identify you). Actually you can, just don't connect to the Internet during your initial setup. The fact that remaining anonymous requires this trick is 100% a dark pattern on MSFT's part. While we're at it: to avoid being forced to fill in the "security questions" during set up, the trick is keep your password blank during set up (add it after set up is done). I recently set up Windows and it requires SO many workarounds to keep your privacy. I recommend setting up OOSU10 before even connecting to the Internet to avoid the Telemetry and Windows sneakily installing helper apps related to your hardware (and I don't mean Drivers) without your consent or knowledge.
- noasaservice 4y ago
  Or Linux. Most users would have a perfectly fine time with Linux. Most things just work these days. Hell, with WINE or Proton/Steam, even Windows stuff works - even this year's games.
  - rmellow 4y ago
    I've tried, really. The recurring pattern with Linux is that: - Trivial things don't always work out of the box - Even after spending considerable time on the command line to fix it, things break semi-frequently I've had setups that I've loved in the past, only to have it fail for some silly reason. i.e. too many kernels have been installed because of updates and suddenly /boot has no more space. I have a job to do, and sysadmining my laptop is not it.
    - sophacles 4y ago
      > I recently set up Windows and it requires SO many workarounds to keep your privacy. I recommend setting up OOSU10 before even connecting to the Internet to avoid the Telemetry and Windows sneakily installing helper apps related to your hardware (and I don't mean Drivers) without your consent or knowledge. Seems an awful lot like > sysadmining my laptop Perhaps you meant to say "learning a new system involves a lot of mental effort". I get that sentiment and don't even disagree (the first quote is a part of what keeps me away from windows I don't want to sysadmin my windows install because I don't want to learn it). I find switching to a different system (e.g. windows) makes everything feel hard because I have enough experience dealing with the little issues. With linux things that the stuff you declared "too much" is a 60-90s blip in my day due to familiarity, not a huge time-sink or rabbit hole. That familiarity means not just "I know what buttons to press" but also "I know where to look to know what buttons", "Consequences of pressing those buttons", "what are the red herrings when I go looking something up". It's a different system with different patterns, thought models designed in, etc. Not that different from say, knowing C and trying to pick up an ML as a second languge - it's not that the patterns are bad or the language "isn't there", it's hard because it's a bunch of different concepts than you're brain is currently patterned for.
somerandomqaguy 4y ago
In a way they are though offering that; I'd assume the Enterprise editions should have ways of disabling many of those tracking via Group Policy. The OS would never be allowed to handle any sensitive information otherwise, even with an air gapped network.

grammers 4y ago

> The question I ask myself is: Am I comfortable with that? Even if it has privacy safeguards, I am not. I'm not willing pay $130 for a Windows license AND have ads presented to me. Exactly this. It's bad enough if it's free, you are the product. But if you pay, it definitely must not be this way. That's the worst form of capitalism in tech.

HomePhone 4y ago
Advertising to paid users. Apple, Twitter, Microsoft, Google already do this. I don’t think it’ll end. It will become normal.
vezycash 4y ago
>It's bad enough if it's free, you are the product. But if you pay, it definitely must not be this way. That's the worst form of capitalism in tech. Microsoft has IOS and Android envy. They've been trying unsuccessfully to make Windows store successful like their mobile counterparts but they keep picking the wrong reasons for their continuous failures. I've used the "Microsoft account" since windows 8 without benefit. I still had to to manually sign-in to the store, the store was super slow, apps would not install for random reasons, it'd ask me to relogin at random times, the store couldn't automatically check if the internet connection was restored, the store would give meaningless windows-esk error codes, no side loading of store apps was possible, I still had to login to Microsoft owned apps even though I'd logged in to the OS, store apps are aliens - look different from normal apps and many shortcuts keys don't work, they randomly close. Basically, the store has / had issues. People will willingly add their emails if there's a benefit to doing so.

vladvasiliu 4y ago

> You can't even install Windows 11 without a Microsoft account Yes you can, even the 22h2 update, although it's of course not self-evident. If you say you want to join it to an ActiveDirectory domain (on-prem, not Azure AD), it will ask you to create a local admin account. It will not follow up with the domain join procedure, so you can leave it at that.

LinuxBender 4y ago
I could be wrong but isn't this just for Pro and Enterprise editions and not the Home edition? I ask because most systems preloaded with Windows have the home edition.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  Good point, I do not know that. I've only ever touched the Pro edition (which later became Enterprise when joined to a domain).
_trackno5 4y ago
Hmm, wonder if it is like the other comment said and you can for the Pro version. I just set up Windows 11 (Home) a few days ago and did not have the option to do that without a MSFT account.

rmellow 4y ago

> You can't even install Windows 11 without a Microsoft account (so they obviously have a way to identify you). Actually you can, just don't connect to the Internet during your initial setup. The fact that remaining anonymous requires this trick is 100% a dark pattern on MSFT's part. While we're at it: to avoid being forced to fill in the "security questions" during set up, the trick is keep your password blank during set up (add it after set up is done). I recently set up Windows and it requires SO many workarounds to keep your privacy. I recommend setting up OOSU10 before even connecting to the Internet to avoid the Telemetry and Windows sneakily installing helper apps related to your hardware (and I don't mean Drivers) without your consent or knowledge.

noasaservice 4y ago
Or Linux. Most users would have a perfectly fine time with Linux. Most things just work these days. Hell, with WINE or Proton/Steam, even Windows stuff works - even this year's games.
- rmellow 4y ago
  I've tried, really. The recurring pattern with Linux is that: - Trivial things don't always work out of the box - Even after spending considerable time on the command line to fix it, things break semi-frequently I've had setups that I've loved in the past, only to have it fail for some silly reason. i.e. too many kernels have been installed because of updates and suddenly /boot has no more space. I have a job to do, and sysadmining my laptop is not it.
  - sophacles 4y ago
    > I recently set up Windows and it requires SO many workarounds to keep your privacy. I recommend setting up OOSU10 before even connecting to the Internet to avoid the Telemetry and Windows sneakily installing helper apps related to your hardware (and I don't mean Drivers) without your consent or knowledge. Seems an awful lot like > sysadmining my laptop Perhaps you meant to say "learning a new system involves a lot of mental effort". I get that sentiment and don't even disagree (the first quote is a part of what keeps me away from windows I don't want to sysadmin my windows install because I don't want to learn it). I find switching to a different system (e.g. windows) makes everything feel hard because I have enough experience dealing with the little issues. With linux things that the stuff you declared "too much" is a 60-90s blip in my day due to familiarity, not a huge time-sink or rabbit hole. That familiarity means not just "I know what buttons to press" but also "I know where to look to know what buttons", "Consequences of pressing those buttons", "what are the red herrings when I go looking something up". It's a different system with different patterns, thought models designed in, etc. Not that different from say, knowing C and trying to pick up an ML as a second languge - it's not that the patterns are bad or the language "isn't there", it's hard because it's a bunch of different concepts than you're brain is currently patterned for.

somerandomqaguy 4y ago

In a way they are though offering that; I'd assume the Enterprise editions should have ways of disabling many of those tracking via Group Policy. The OS would never be allowed to handle any sensitive information otherwise, even with an air gapped network.