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Tradition has held that these are ideas, not inventions, and thus obtain value precisely because they can and should be freely shared (which is the ultimate aim

Tradition has held that these are ideas, not inventions, and thus obtain value precisely because they can and should be freely shared (which is the ultimate aim of patents anyway). Ideas may also require intellectual labour. But one may not receive the protection of the government for them to give temporary advantage over competitors. Ideas are a collaborative venture, protocols being the very epitome of this - since a "protocol of one" is a bit like a birthday party for one... a bit sad and pointless. If one wants to make money, by all means invest time in pursuing patentable inventions, but do not presume that mere ideas (most of which are "nothing new under the sun") should be afforded the same protection. The problem we have today is that the patent system is derelict. The goalposts have shifted to allow almost all and any silly idea to obtain a patent and the system itself is weaponised for extraction. It has not shown any will to reform, so abolition may be its ultimate fate.

abduhl 4y ago
I’m interested in what “traditions” you’re talking about here? Honestly, it is not even clear to me what you’re talking about when you say “these” in your sentence. Certainly tradition hasn’t held that Rust memory management is an idea and therefore not patentable. Same with new models in ML? Maybe there is some tradition for protocols, but even those are generally patentable but required to be licensed via FRAND. Your post seems to entirely misunderstand the patent system. “But one may not receive the protection of the government for [ideas] to give temporary advantage over competitors.” This is just flat out wrong. The purpose of a patent is literally to receive the protection of the government for your ideas in order to give you a temporary advantage over your competitors via a government granted monopoly on an idea. The bargain that’s struck is that the patent owner gives the details of their patented idea to the world so that anyone can eventually practice it or build off of it in exchange for a limited exclusionary protection in commerce.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  I'm sorry I can do nothing more to help with your misunderstanding of my good faith post. Please do the necessary research with regard to the history and purpose of designs and patents law.
  - abduhl 4y ago
    So you have no examples or explanations for what “traditions” you’re talking about where ideas are not inventions or vice versa.
    - nonrandomstring 4y ago
      > So you have no examples or explanations for what “traditions” I have plenty. Now, I do not wish to be rude Abduhl, but I find your "question" a little disingenuous, and your expectation that I act as your personal tutor on well documented matters a tad entitled. This isn't my full-time job, and I come here mainly to look for interesting and unusual viewpoints. Have you done even the most cursory research into the history of patents as I indicated? Do you need some reference material or links to get started? How about reading some lecture notes and essays (some of the finest on the formation of copyright, patent and trademarks) on the site of Havard law professor Lawrence Lessig [1] [1] https://www.lessig.org/ https://www.lessig.org/
- BlueTemplar 4y ago
  Pretty sure that it's not for ideas, but for specific implementations of ideas, patents being criticized as abusive when they are not specific enough ? One example I saw just today : Thomas Savery getting a patent on "make, imitate, use or exercise any vessells or engines for raiseing [sic] water or occasioning motion to any sort of mill works by the impellent force of fire,", which I assume subordinated Thomas Newcomen during the patent's duration = all of his life to Savery, despite Newcomen's engine being much more advanced & commercially successful... (at least he didn't end up destitute, like some of the previous steam engine inventors !) https://technicshistory.com/2021/05/05/the-pumping-engine/ https://technicshistory.com/2021/05/05/the-pumping-engine/
  - abduhl 4y ago
    This seems to be splitting hairs on what an “idea” is. Is a patent on the use of water heated into steam to drive an engine different from the idea to use steam to drive an engine? I don’t really see where you draw the line here, and the idea to use steam to drive an engine was definitely new at the time so why shouldn’t it be patentable? And also note that your linked story does not implicate the US patent system (which addresses the problem you’ve identified: your patent only lasts for 17 years, not for your or your competitor’s life) but seems to be reliant on the British patent system as it was in the late 1600s. You can argue that the patent system in the US is partially broken because of how broadly patents are granted nowadays, but that does not support the GP’s contention that there is some kind of distinct line that can be drawn between an idea and an invention, which is why the patent system is what it is now. And, again, your own link underscores how far we’ve come in understanding that unlimited monopolies on technologies/ideas are bad and how limiting patents durationally can help with that. Note that one of the requirements for a patent to issue is called “enablement” which basically means that your patent MUST describe the invention with sufficient particularity that a person with ordinary skill in the art could make and use your invention.
    - BlueTemplar 4y ago
      lol, after your last phrase I'm confused about what we are even arguing ? (Also, I don't think that in that case the patent expired because its holder died, more likely it came to a term (after being renewed ?) after 35 years (which I agree is a tad long), otherwise my source wouldn't have put it in this way ?)
themitigating 4y ago
Isn't an invention just an implementation of an idea. I also don't understand why many accepy patents except for software
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  The problem here is your use of the word "just". Consider the idea of "going to the moon" versus the implementation of Project Apollo.
  - abduhl 4y ago
    The idea of going to the moon is not patentable. The implementation of Project Apollo may be patentable.

abduhl 4y ago

I’m interested in what “traditions” you’re talking about here? Honestly, it is not even clear to me what you’re talking about when you say “these” in your sentence. Certainly tradition hasn’t held that Rust memory management is an idea and therefore not patentable. Same with new models in ML? Maybe there is some tradition for protocols, but even those are generally patentable but required to be licensed via FRAND. Your post seems to entirely misunderstand the patent system. “But one may not receive the protection of the government for [ideas] to give temporary advantage over competitors.” This is just flat out wrong. The purpose of a patent is literally to receive the protection of the government for your ideas in order to give you a temporary advantage over your competitors via a government granted monopoly on an idea. The bargain that’s struck is that the patent owner gives the details of their patented idea to the world so that anyone can eventually practice it or build off of it in exchange for a limited exclusionary protection in commerce.

nonrandomstring 4y ago
I'm sorry I can do nothing more to help with your misunderstanding of my good faith post. Please do the necessary research with regard to the history and purpose of designs and patents law.
- abduhl 4y ago
  So you have no examples or explanations for what “traditions” you’re talking about where ideas are not inventions or vice versa.
  - nonrandomstring 4y ago
    > So you have no examples or explanations for what “traditions” I have plenty. Now, I do not wish to be rude Abduhl, but I find your "question" a little disingenuous, and your expectation that I act as your personal tutor on well documented matters a tad entitled. This isn't my full-time job, and I come here mainly to look for interesting and unusual viewpoints. Have you done even the most cursory research into the history of patents as I indicated? Do you need some reference material or links to get started? How about reading some lecture notes and essays (some of the finest on the formation of copyright, patent and trademarks) on the site of Havard law professor Lawrence Lessig [1] [1] https://www.lessig.org/ https://www.lessig.org/
BlueTemplar 4y ago
Pretty sure that it's not for ideas, but for specific implementations of ideas, patents being criticized as abusive when they are not specific enough ? One example I saw just today : Thomas Savery getting a patent on "make, imitate, use or exercise any vessells or engines for raiseing [sic] water or occasioning motion to any sort of mill works by the impellent force of fire,", which I assume subordinated Thomas Newcomen during the patent's duration = all of his life to Savery, despite Newcomen's engine being much more advanced & commercially successful... (at least he didn't end up destitute, like some of the previous steam engine inventors !) https://technicshistory.com/2021/05/05/the-pumping-engine/ https://technicshistory.com/2021/05/05/the-pumping-engine/
- abduhl 4y ago
  This seems to be splitting hairs on what an “idea” is. Is a patent on the use of water heated into steam to drive an engine different from the idea to use steam to drive an engine? I don’t really see where you draw the line here, and the idea to use steam to drive an engine was definitely new at the time so why shouldn’t it be patentable? And also note that your linked story does not implicate the US patent system (which addresses the problem you’ve identified: your patent only lasts for 17 years, not for your or your competitor’s life) but seems to be reliant on the British patent system as it was in the late 1600s. You can argue that the patent system in the US is partially broken because of how broadly patents are granted nowadays, but that does not support the GP’s contention that there is some kind of distinct line that can be drawn between an idea and an invention, which is why the patent system is what it is now. And, again, your own link underscores how far we’ve come in understanding that unlimited monopolies on technologies/ideas are bad and how limiting patents durationally can help with that. Note that one of the requirements for a patent to issue is called “enablement” which basically means that your patent MUST describe the invention with sufficient particularity that a person with ordinary skill in the art could make and use your invention.
  - BlueTemplar 4y ago
    lol, after your last phrase I'm confused about what we are even arguing ? (Also, I don't think that in that case the patent expired because its holder died, more likely it came to a term (after being renewed ?) after 35 years (which I agree is a tad long), otherwise my source wouldn't have put it in this way ?)

themitigating 4y ago

Isn't an invention just an implementation of an idea. I also don't understand why many accepy patents except for software

nonrandomstring 4y ago
The problem here is your use of the word "just". Consider the idea of "going to the moon" versus the implementation of Project Apollo.
- abduhl 4y ago
  The idea of going to the moon is not patentable. The implementation of Project Apollo may be patentable.