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Alon Levy has written extensively on reasons why the MTA builds at roughly 10× the rest of the world in subway construction costs. (The short answer is that, wh

Alon Levy has written extensively on reasons why the MTA builds at roughly 10× the rest of the world in subway construction costs. (The short answer is that, when you have cost premiums in that ballpark, everything is going wrong to some degree). I could go into detail, but I'll focus on one particular detail to show why your following quote is wrong: > No amount of clever design or management could possibly make the Second Avenue subway cost a reasonable amount. Roughly half of the cost of the 2nd Avenue subway phase 2 is in the station costs. (I don't have the most recent precise cost breakdown in front of me to give you precise numbers). If you want to cut the cost down considerably, looking for any inefficiencies in station construction costs is a good place to start, then... and it turns out there are glaring inefficiencies. One of the most obvious contenders is the use of full-length mezzanines, which are unusual, unnecessary, and extremely expensive in a mined station design (as opposed to cut-and-cover, where the volume needs to be excavated anyways). That's one design change that can give cost savings on the order of at least 10%, and it's not even particularly clever design. Ultimately, the main reason why it's so expensive is that people like you, who are completely incurious about why anything may be expensive, are in charge of these projects.

m0llusk 4y ago
Completely incurious? NYC has a lot of subway miles. This particular subway was repeatedly proposed and rejected as being too costly. And when it was finally built it turned out to be hugely expensive just as predicted. And now this unusually expensive line is being used as an example of all subway construction. That is kind of like trying to explain the cost of food by reviewing the menu at a top rated restaurant or calculating the cost of driving by focusing on luxury sport vehicles. Anyone who actually cares about calculating and comprehending costs needs to be careful with outliers. And what is with this "people like you" remark? If I had input into the NYC subway system then I would focus on deferred maintenance instead of building a fabulously expensive new line that will never produce a return on the money spent on it. The verifiable fact is that the Second Avenue subway line was known to be hugely expensive from the start. Cut and cover construction was not an option in this case. I make a point about there being a hundred years of detailed analysis describing why the Second Avenue subway could not be constructed for a reasonable cost and that makes me completely incurious? Have you ever bothered to investigate the previous proposals which were rejected? Not even realizing that you are committing to a "It's different this time" strategy creates problems.
- tptacek 4y ago
  The irony here is that this comment isn't even curious about the comment it immediately replied to, which found a 10%(!) savings simply by changing the style of station being built.

m0llusk 4y ago

Completely incurious? NYC has a lot of subway miles. This particular subway was repeatedly proposed and rejected as being too costly. And when it was finally built it turned out to be hugely expensive just as predicted. And now this unusually expensive line is being used as an example of all subway construction. That is kind of like trying to explain the cost of food by reviewing the menu at a top rated restaurant or calculating the cost of driving by focusing on luxury sport vehicles. Anyone who actually cares about calculating and comprehending costs needs to be careful with outliers. And what is with this "people like you" remark? If I had input into the NYC subway system then I would focus on deferred maintenance instead of building a fabulously expensive new line that will never produce a return on the money spent on it. The verifiable fact is that the Second Avenue subway line was known to be hugely expensive from the start. Cut and cover construction was not an option in this case. I make a point about there being a hundred years of detailed analysis describing why the Second Avenue subway could not be constructed for a reasonable cost and that makes me completely incurious? Have you ever bothered to investigate the previous proposals which were rejected? Not even realizing that you are committing to a "It's different this time" strategy creates problems.

tptacek 4y ago
The irony here is that this comment isn't even curious about the comment it immediately replied to, which found a 10%(!) savings simply by changing the style of station being built.