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While I agree with your comments with regard to the forums that exist for this purpose, this does not appear to have been one of them. It is not clear to me wh

While I agree with your comments with regard to the forums that exist for this purpose, this does not appear to have been one of them. It is not clear to me why your concerns for the three people who were called out here should not also apply, and with more justification, to the person they ridiculed in the first place. If calling them out gave encouragement to other people who have been discouraged by similar responses, it did some objective good. I prefer happy endings across the board.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
> It is not clear to me why your concerns for the three people who were called out here should not also apply, and with more justification, to the person they ridiculed in the first place. Yes and no. Her posting probably multiplied the damage these folks did to themselves, but it probably didn’t really damage her, that much. Maybe, the opposite. I don't know if the bullying she suffered was the reason that she doesn't do open source any more. It doesn't seem to have stopped her. Online venues (in that case, Twitter) seem to have exacerbated the propensity for human cruelty, by abstracting the consequences (but, as this thread shows, that “abstraction” is really kind of an illusion). Most participants on HN probably fit the “geek” archetype, in one form or another, and I’ll bet most of us have been the target of relentless bullying. It’s kind of heartbreaking, to see us then turn around, and repeat that behavior onto others. I know, that for myself, I can be a fairly hard taskmaster. I have definite opinions on many matters. I know that some of my opinions are minority opinions. I’ve learned to keep my opinions focused on myself, or on folks that I work with directly. Even doing that, can draw attacks. It’s up to me, how I respond to these attacks. It’s quite possible for me to make things worse. I have learned some humbling lessons. Kindness and encouragement are not “virtue signaling.” They are also not displays of naïveté or weakness. Many of the folks that participate here, become successful, by leveraging the weakness of others, to their own advantages. That’s not always a bad thing, but it is very much a “live by the sword, die by the sword” thing. I choose not to live in a world of conflict, rancor, misanthropy, and anger. I know that means I probably won’t be a captain of industry, but that’s never been a goal, and that’s all right. I have, however, been bullied to a degree that many people here might find shocking. It has a lot to do with the environments in which I was raised. In my case, instead of making me a bully, it has helped me to become a lot more compassionate. But that was not a straightforward path. I was, temporarily, a bully (a particularly nasty one). I’m really glad that I was able to grow past it, before doing myself permanent harm.
- mannykannot 4y ago
  Even if the response can be characterized as bullying - a view which, personally, I do not subscribe to - we still have the same asymmetry here where you are criticizing the person who responded to ridicule, but not those who instigated it. I understand that sometimes people who are bullied become bullies themselves, but that often manifests itself in them bullying third parties who never caused any trouble in the first place. This is clearly not the case here. Two of the more effective responses to bullying are to bring it out into the light and to encourage its victims to stand up for themselves (an act which is a great booster of self-confidence - more effective than becoming a bully oneself, as in that case, the original problem remains unresolved.) Nothing in this position should be construed as dismissing kindness and encouragement as virtue signaling.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    Well, it depends. Linus T. is probably a 0.0001% programmer. One of the very best in the entire world. I mean, he wrote the core of Git, in what? a week? But he is even more well-known for ... other ... attributes. The thing is, he does best, when he constrains his invective for people contributing to the Linux kernel; one of the most important and critical pieces of software on Earth. I can totally understand his position (although I would not do things the same way). I'm not sure that it makes me interested in becoming a Linux contributor (as if I'd be qualified, anyway). As far as I know, he has not gone onto other OS projects, and insulted their authors and maintainers. But frankly, I'm glad that someone of his skill, that takes Quality as seriously as does he, is on the job at Linux. I am actually worried about what will happen, if he's no longer around. I hope that he has instilled as much fervor in the next generation. Disclaimer: I worked at one of the most rigorous optical device manufacturers in the world, for most of my career. I ran into folks like that, on a regular basis. I often wanted to strangle them, but it was also an honor to work with them.
    - mannykannot 4y ago
      > Well, it depends. I broadly share your opinion on Torvalds' style of communication and what it takes to keep a complex project on track, but it is not clear to me that I should change my above opinions on account of that - it does not seem to me to be the same situation as the one we are nominally discussing.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

> It is not clear to me why your concerns for the three people who were called out here should not also apply, and with more justification, to the person they ridiculed in the first place. Yes and no. Her posting probably multiplied the damage these folks did to themselves, but it probably didn’t really damage her, that much. Maybe, the opposite. I don't know if the bullying she suffered was the reason that she doesn't do open source any more. It doesn't seem to have stopped her. Online venues (in that case, Twitter) seem to have exacerbated the propensity for human cruelty, by abstracting the consequences (but, as this thread shows, that “abstraction” is really kind of an illusion). Most participants on HN probably fit the “geek” archetype, in one form or another, and I’ll bet most of us have been the target of relentless bullying. It’s kind of heartbreaking, to see us then turn around, and repeat that behavior onto others. I know, that for myself, I can be a fairly hard taskmaster. I have definite opinions on many matters. I know that some of my opinions are minority opinions. I’ve learned to keep my opinions focused on myself, or on folks that I work with directly. Even doing that, can draw attacks. It’s up to me, how I respond to these attacks. It’s quite possible for me to make things worse. I have learned some humbling lessons. Kindness and encouragement are not “virtue signaling.” They are also not displays of naïveté or weakness. Many of the folks that participate here, become successful, by leveraging the weakness of others, to their own advantages. That’s not always a bad thing, but it is very much a “live by the sword, die by the sword” thing. I choose not to live in a world of conflict, rancor, misanthropy, and anger. I know that means I probably won’t be a captain of industry, but that’s never been a goal, and that’s all right. I have, however, been bullied to a degree that many people here might find shocking. It has a lot to do with the environments in which I was raised. In my case, instead of making me a bully, it has helped me to become a lot more compassionate. But that was not a straightforward path. I was, temporarily, a bully (a particularly nasty one). I’m really glad that I was able to grow past it, before doing myself permanent harm.

mannykannot 4y ago
Even if the response can be characterized as bullying - a view which, personally, I do not subscribe to - we still have the same asymmetry here where you are criticizing the person who responded to ridicule, but not those who instigated it. I understand that sometimes people who are bullied become bullies themselves, but that often manifests itself in them bullying third parties who never caused any trouble in the first place. This is clearly not the case here. Two of the more effective responses to bullying are to bring it out into the light and to encourage its victims to stand up for themselves (an act which is a great booster of self-confidence - more effective than becoming a bully oneself, as in that case, the original problem remains unresolved.) Nothing in this position should be construed as dismissing kindness and encouragement as virtue signaling.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  Well, it depends. Linus T. is probably a 0.0001% programmer. One of the very best in the entire world. I mean, he wrote the core of Git, in what? a week? But he is even more well-known for ... other ... attributes. The thing is, he does best, when he constrains his invective for people contributing to the Linux kernel; one of the most important and critical pieces of software on Earth. I can totally understand his position (although I would not do things the same way). I'm not sure that it makes me interested in becoming a Linux contributor (as if I'd be qualified, anyway). As far as I know, he has not gone onto other OS projects, and insulted their authors and maintainers. But frankly, I'm glad that someone of his skill, that takes Quality as seriously as does he, is on the job at Linux. I am actually worried about what will happen, if he's no longer around. I hope that he has instilled as much fervor in the next generation. Disclaimer: I worked at one of the most rigorous optical device manufacturers in the world, for most of my career. I ran into folks like that, on a regular basis. I often wanted to strangle them, but it was also an honor to work with them.
  - mannykannot 4y ago
    > Well, it depends. I broadly share your opinion on Torvalds' style of communication and what it takes to keep a complex project on track, but it is not clear to me that I should change my above opinions on account of that - it does not seem to me to be the same situation as the one we are nominally discussing.