6 ms·

The unintended consequence of EVs: More demand for manual transmissions

21 points by throw0101c 4y ago

Finnucane 4y ago
The real way to experience stick is driving cross country in a three speed VW micro bus with a really loose gearbox.
- codeduck 4y ago
  nonsense. it's to attempt to navigate a flooded dirt road in a 1980s era rear wheel drive saloon car
- agtorre 4y ago
  For me it was driving up hill in Seattle rush hour.
  - mikestew 4y ago
    When you can drive from First Avenue to Fourth on a downtown cross street, with a car 3’ from your rear bumper at the stoplight, without letting the smoke out, only then may you leave the monastery.
  - snapetom 4y ago
    * Laughs in having to drive in San Francisco 6 months after learning how to drive a stick * I live in Seattle now. Hills aren't nearly as bad as SF. Unless you count those atrocious, gravel-like roads in Eastlake.
    - agtorre 4y ago
      Yeah, the rain and dark made it much worse
jdashg 4y ago
The irreplaceability of the feel of 3-pedal driving is part of what keeps me from jumping to an EV. I will eventually give up, but I will be sad about it. Driving an EV is just not interesting in the same way to me. I don't enjoy driving on Easy Mode.
pmontra 4y ago
I'm surprised but I can understand why young people want to go manual. Change is also part of growing up and become different from their (our) parents. I always owned manual cars but I drove many miles on automatic cars. In my experience manual is safer on hilly terrains when you either have to feel the car or drive really slowly and hope for the best (but a friend with a new automatic car told me this is changing.) Automatic is great inside cities where you always stop and go. It's a tie on the highway because nothing happens and there is no difference driving 50 miles always in manual 5th gear or in automatic 5th gears. For electric, flooring the pedal at the traffic light, no clutch, full torque is great. I won't add a manual transmission to my future EV, if ever.
- H1Supreme 4y ago
  > It's a tie on the highway because nothing happens and there is no difference driving 50 miles always in manual 5th gear or in automatic 5th gears. Except, most automatics are going up past 5th gear. 7, 8, even 10 speed auto's are pretty common. Those higher "highway" gears make a big difference in terms of engine revs (which equals less noise and better MPG).
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    They don't make a "big" difference. If they made a "big" difference you'd have seen them decades ago. We've had the tech for as long as we've had automatic transmissions. More gears is just more stacked planetary gearsets. If you can build a 2spd you can build an N-speed. But just because you can build it doesn't mean you can justify it. It's only within the last decade that the extra complexity and cost have become a) cheaper b) worth it.
    - windowsrookie 4y ago
      What? These 8-10 speed transmissions absolutely make a huge difference. Just one example I'm familiar with is the Dodge charger. The 2014 model had a 5 speed automatic, and the 2015 had an 8 speed. Otherwise they are exactly the same car. The 8 speed transmission resulted in a 3MPG improvement on the highway from 27MPG to 30MPG. That is a huge improvement for only changing literally one component on the car. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34210&id=35369 https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34210&...
secretsatan 4y ago
I'm sure I'm more dangerous in an automatic, every time I come to a traffic stop I try to put the clutch in first.
H1Supreme 4y ago
This article should be re-titled as: "Performance cars still come with a stick". Outside of the Ford Mustang, not one vehicle mentioned has any sort of sales volume (relative to other vehicles). The Civic Type R and GR Corolla are being produced in such hilariously small numbers it's basically become a meme. There's no demand for a stick in any other segment (in the US). Otherwise, we'd see them! They cherry picked a couple examples from Porsche, because the rest of the lineup is overwhelmingly PDK sales. Cars like the Civic Type R, GR Corolla, and Supra (w/ a manual) are a double edged sword. On one hand, I think they're awesome cars, and I love that they're being offered. On the other hand, the chance to buy them is reserved to very few people. Paying 50k-55k for a Civic sounds absolutely insane to me.
jaChEWAg 4y ago
While manual transmission is fun and has a different feel for driving. From my experience, once your car starts outputting anything above 400hp, having a manual takes away from that power because no matter how good of a driver you might be, you won't beat a dual-clutch automatic shift. It literally happens in milliseconds. By the time you reach for the shifter, you've already wasted power and torque. I used to think manual was the "only" way for driving fast sport cars until I test drove a Nissan GTR Nismo producing 850hp. The speed between shifts is faster than your eyes can blink (even at low speeds). It's something you can't do justice by describing. The only way to believe it is to try it. With all that said, I don't quiet see EV manufactures going manual anytime soon since we're still in a transitional period with many challenges and problems to solve before serving a niche market. Plus, most drivers nowadays that are looking to drive a manual car, probably aren't shopping for an EV.
- bsagdiyev 4y ago
  I've driven (daily even) a 600awhp car and didn't feel that way. I'm not trying to beat anyone on shifts, I'm trying to enjoy my car and drive. It's not always a numbers game.
- b112 4y ago
  While I agree dual clutch, or other manual/auto systems are better than pure auto, and perhaps faster than manual, that isn't the point. It's about control. It's about disengaging the clutch instantly, and re-engaging just as fast. It's about feathering the clutch, and fast drops from 6th to 1st. It is about control, and about feel too. It is about the driver deciding, not a machine. So sure, speed maybe, but not control.
  - RickHull 4y ago
    Clutch engagement via pedal is nowhere near instant, and the dual clutch gearboxes (computer controlled) are faster. Feathering the clutch is mostly useless in everyday driving and performance driving. Likewise, dropping from 6th to 1st. Above 20mph, it's nearly always a mistake to downshift to 1st, and who is going 20mph in 6th? The only legitimate reason I can see to prefer a 3 pedal gearbox over a DCT is the ability to clutch kick to initiate oversteer, which is purely for drifting. Mostly 3 pedal cars are useful for a display of mastery, but 99% of drivers fall way short, and don't even realize it, leaving gobs of performance on the table or mismatching revs and introducing undesirable weight transfer. There is nothing an abacus does better than a calculator, but I don't begrudge abacus aficionados, and abacus mastery is quite impressive. Source: Porsche Driving Instructor for 5 years with thousands of hours in the passenger seat.
mikestew 4y ago
On the one hand, the article states that enthusiasts have been decrying the death of the manual transmission for twenty years, and on the other "it's all the fault of EVs" (which have been in mass production for only eleven years). It has fuck all to do with EVs (at least in the U. S.), except for making an appealing headline. It's why, when we bought our 2005 Scion xB, we had to order the car to get a manual transmission because they didn't keep them on the lot...because no one was buying manuals in 2004, either. After driving a dual-clutch automatic transmission, I realized that our Scion will be the last manual transmission car we buy (mainly because the next one will be an EV, like our current first-gen Leaf, but even if we bought ICE...). Oh, I could wax nostalgic about "driver control" and "enjoying the car", but it really boils down to "old man is willing to give up performance while shaking fist at cloud". Hell, I might as well get out and crank start it, and then hop back in so I can manually advance the spark with the steering column lever. You kids don't know "control" until you have the ability to burn a hole in a piston with the flick of a lever! I don't need a computer to decide when to light the fuel/gas mixture!
- saurik 4y ago
  You seem to have mis-read the article: it is not blaming the death of the manual transmission on EVs, it is connecting a sudden resurgence in the interest in manual transmissions on EVs (so like, the exact opposite).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bvanderveen 4y ago
Well then, mineral extraction woes be damned, I’m for them! I never learned how to use a car with a missing pedal. For example, how do you tell it to produce adequate power right now (not 3 seconds from now) so you can pull out into busy traffic or overtake? When can I rent a manual Corolla at a US airport?
yellowapple 4y ago
The article misses another reason why demand for EVs might drive demand for ICEVs with manual transmissions: if you're going to convert an ICEV into an EV, it's typically easier to do so with a manual transmission (in which case you can leave the gearbox as-is and just always drive in e.g. 2nd) than with an automatic transmission (in which case you have to either remove/replace the transmission entirely or somehow convince it to not try shifting based on the "engine's" RPM). Newer cars also have a lot more "smarts" in their drivetrains that would probably interfere with an EV conversion, and I'd be unsurprised if buying manual instead of automatic mitigates that somewhat. Whether people are actually buying new ICEVs and converting them into EVs is doubtful, but if they are, then that would readily explain the uptick in manual purchases.
amai 4y ago
In Europe everybody drives with manual transmission, because it is more fuel efficient: https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/01/save-gas-and-money-with-a-manual-transmission/index.htm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/01/save-gas-and-mon... But in the US where gasoline is cheaper than water and the CO2 emissions won't heat up the planet, nobody cares about fuel efficiency.

21 points by throw0101c 4y ago

Finnucane 4y ago

The real way to experience stick is driving cross country in a three speed VW micro bus with a really loose gearbox.

codeduck 4y ago
nonsense. it's to attempt to navigate a flooded dirt road in a 1980s era rear wheel drive saloon car
agtorre 4y ago
For me it was driving up hill in Seattle rush hour.
- mikestew 4y ago
  When you can drive from First Avenue to Fourth on a downtown cross street, with a car 3’ from your rear bumper at the stoplight, without letting the smoke out, only then may you leave the monastery.
- snapetom 4y ago
  * Laughs in having to drive in San Francisco 6 months after learning how to drive a stick * I live in Seattle now. Hills aren't nearly as bad as SF. Unless you count those atrocious, gravel-like roads in Eastlake.
  - agtorre 4y ago
    Yeah, the rain and dark made it much worse

jdashg 4y ago

The irreplaceability of the feel of 3-pedal driving is part of what keeps me from jumping to an EV. I will eventually give up, but I will be sad about it. Driving an EV is just not interesting in the same way to me. I don't enjoy driving on Easy Mode.

pmontra 4y ago

I'm surprised but I can understand why young people want to go manual. Change is also part of growing up and become different from their (our) parents. I always owned manual cars but I drove many miles on automatic cars. In my experience manual is safer on hilly terrains when you either have to feel the car or drive really slowly and hope for the best (but a friend with a new automatic car told me this is changing.) Automatic is great inside cities where you always stop and go. It's a tie on the highway because nothing happens and there is no difference driving 50 miles always in manual 5th gear or in automatic 5th gears. For electric, flooring the pedal at the traffic light, no clutch, full torque is great. I won't add a manual transmission to my future EV, if ever.

H1Supreme 4y ago
> It's a tie on the highway because nothing happens and there is no difference driving 50 miles always in manual 5th gear or in automatic 5th gears. Except, most automatics are going up past 5th gear. 7, 8, even 10 speed auto's are pretty common. Those higher "highway" gears make a big difference in terms of engine revs (which equals less noise and better MPG).
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  They don't make a "big" difference. If they made a "big" difference you'd have seen them decades ago. We've had the tech for as long as we've had automatic transmissions. More gears is just more stacked planetary gearsets. If you can build a 2spd you can build an N-speed. But just because you can build it doesn't mean you can justify it. It's only within the last decade that the extra complexity and cost have become a) cheaper b) worth it.
  - windowsrookie 4y ago
    What? These 8-10 speed transmissions absolutely make a huge difference. Just one example I'm familiar with is the Dodge charger. The 2014 model had a 5 speed automatic, and the 2015 had an 8 speed. Otherwise they are exactly the same car. The 8 speed transmission resulted in a 3MPG improvement on the highway from 27MPG to 30MPG. That is a huge improvement for only changing literally one component on the car. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34210&id=35369 https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34210&...

secretsatan 4y ago

I'm sure I'm more dangerous in an automatic, every time I come to a traffic stop I try to put the clutch in first.

H1Supreme 4y ago

This article should be re-titled as: "Performance cars still come with a stick". Outside of the Ford Mustang, not one vehicle mentioned has any sort of sales volume (relative to other vehicles). The Civic Type R and GR Corolla are being produced in such hilariously small numbers it's basically become a meme. There's no demand for a stick in any other segment (in the US). Otherwise, we'd see them! They cherry picked a couple examples from Porsche, because the rest of the lineup is overwhelmingly PDK sales. Cars like the Civic Type R, GR Corolla, and Supra (w/ a manual) are a double edged sword. On one hand, I think they're awesome cars, and I love that they're being offered. On the other hand, the chance to buy them is reserved to very few people. Paying 50k-55k for a Civic sounds absolutely insane to me.

jaChEWAg 4y ago

While manual transmission is fun and has a different feel for driving. From my experience, once your car starts outputting anything above 400hp, having a manual takes away from that power because no matter how good of a driver you might be, you won't beat a dual-clutch automatic shift. It literally happens in milliseconds. By the time you reach for the shifter, you've already wasted power and torque. I used to think manual was the "only" way for driving fast sport cars until I test drove a Nissan GTR Nismo producing 850hp. The speed between shifts is faster than your eyes can blink (even at low speeds). It's something you can't do justice by describing. The only way to believe it is to try it. With all that said, I don't quiet see EV manufactures going manual anytime soon since we're still in a transitional period with many challenges and problems to solve before serving a niche market. Plus, most drivers nowadays that are looking to drive a manual car, probably aren't shopping for an EV.

bsagdiyev 4y ago
I've driven (daily even) a 600awhp car and didn't feel that way. I'm not trying to beat anyone on shifts, I'm trying to enjoy my car and drive. It's not always a numbers game.
b112 4y ago
While I agree dual clutch, or other manual/auto systems are better than pure auto, and perhaps faster than manual, that isn't the point. It's about control. It's about disengaging the clutch instantly, and re-engaging just as fast. It's about feathering the clutch, and fast drops from 6th to 1st. It is about control, and about feel too. It is about the driver deciding, not a machine. So sure, speed maybe, but not control.
- RickHull 4y ago
  Clutch engagement via pedal is nowhere near instant, and the dual clutch gearboxes (computer controlled) are faster. Feathering the clutch is mostly useless in everyday driving and performance driving. Likewise, dropping from 6th to 1st. Above 20mph, it's nearly always a mistake to downshift to 1st, and who is going 20mph in 6th? The only legitimate reason I can see to prefer a 3 pedal gearbox over a DCT is the ability to clutch kick to initiate oversteer, which is purely for drifting. Mostly 3 pedal cars are useful for a display of mastery, but 99% of drivers fall way short, and don't even realize it, leaving gobs of performance on the table or mismatching revs and introducing undesirable weight transfer. There is nothing an abacus does better than a calculator, but I don't begrudge abacus aficionados, and abacus mastery is quite impressive. Source: Porsche Driving Instructor for 5 years with thousands of hours in the passenger seat.

mikestew 4y ago

On the one hand, the article states that enthusiasts have been decrying the death of the manual transmission for twenty years, and on the other "it's all the fault of EVs" (which have been in mass production for only eleven years). It has fuck all to do with EVs (at least in the U. S.), except for making an appealing headline. It's why, when we bought our 2005 Scion xB, we had to order the car to get a manual transmission because they didn't keep them on the lot...because no one was buying manuals in 2004, either. After driving a dual-clutch automatic transmission, I realized that our Scion will be the last manual transmission car we buy (mainly because the next one will be an EV, like our current first-gen Leaf, but even if we bought ICE...). Oh, I could wax nostalgic about "driver control" and "enjoying the car", but it really boils down to "old man is willing to give up performance while shaking fist at cloud". Hell, I might as well get out and crank start it, and then hop back in so I can manually advance the spark with the steering column lever. You kids don't know "control" until you have the ability to burn a hole in a piston with the flick of a lever! I don't need a computer to decide when to light the fuel/gas mixture!

saurik 4y ago
You seem to have mis-read the article: it is not blaming the death of the manual transmission on EVs, it is connecting a sudden resurgence in the interest in manual transmissions on EVs (so like, the exact opposite).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bvanderveen 4y ago

Well then, mineral extraction woes be damned, I’m for them! I never learned how to use a car with a missing pedal. For example, how do you tell it to produce adequate power right now (not 3 seconds from now) so you can pull out into busy traffic or overtake? When can I rent a manual Corolla at a US airport?

yellowapple 4y ago

The article misses another reason why demand for EVs might drive demand for ICEVs with manual transmissions: if you're going to convert an ICEV into an EV, it's typically easier to do so with a manual transmission (in which case you can leave the gearbox as-is and just always drive in e.g. 2nd) than with an automatic transmission (in which case you have to either remove/replace the transmission entirely or somehow convince it to not try shifting based on the "engine's" RPM). Newer cars also have a lot more "smarts" in their drivetrains that would probably interfere with an EV conversion, and I'd be unsurprised if buying manual instead of automatic mitigates that somewhat. Whether people are actually buying new ICEVs and converting them into EVs is doubtful, but if they are, then that would readily explain the uptick in manual purchases.

amai 4y ago

In Europe everybody drives with manual transmission, because it is more fuel efficient: https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/01/save-gas-and-money-with-a-manual-transmission/index.htm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/01/save-gas-and-mon... But in the US where gasoline is cheaper than water and the CO2 emissions won't heat up the planet, nobody cares about fuel efficiency.