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Although I agree that the original post was naive, I do not think that the misleading vividness and hasty generalization employed by Jefferson addresses the iss

Although I agree that the original post was naive, I do not think that the misleading vividness and hasty generalization employed by Jefferson addresses the issue to which the OP was referring. There is massive hardship across all low income families but the use an outlier scenario does not negate the valid argument that having goals and knowing that there is a prize to win at the end of the race, is a strong motivator. I inferred that a lack of hope and knowledge of an achievable future, is one of the primary causes of lower performing low income students.

andylei 15y ago
> misleading vividness what? > hasty generalization there are no generalizations here. the article says that the author of the forbes article (as well as you), as a person or privilege, does not understand poverty and thus has no idea how to solve the problem. if anyone is making "hasty generalizations", its the author of the forbes article, who thinks that poor kids simply aren't trying hard enough. > the use an outlier scenario how do you know this is an outlier scenario? > having goals and knowing that there is a prize to win at the end of the race, is a strong motivator i doubt anyone would disagree with this statement, but it's irrelevant. the original forbes article suggests that having goals and determination are sufficient for escaping poverty. this article makes the argument that even with goals and determination, escaping poverty is still extremely difficult; furthermore, the very condition of poverty undermines the ability to develop goals and determination.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  I think it is pretty safe to say that "acts out in school to get suspensions to stop your mother from being a prostitute" is an outlier. I acted out in primary school. I did it because I was an asshole who didn't respect education. I suspect my peers were the same.
  - darklajid 15y ago
    Just for reference, since you're now directly comparing two schools (yours and the one in the linked article) here, how would you characterize the similarities or differences between your school and one described as "a primarily low-income, high-minority middle school serving sixth- through eighth-graders"?
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Yeah, that sounds about like my school. However, I find it very hard to believe that any school in the world can attribute most of it's student unruliness to children trying to get kicked out so that their mothers cannot be prostitutes.
- frankydp 15y ago
  Misleading vividness is the use of a dramatic event that is not in keeping with the majority of the population group. Hasty generalization is much the same, by weighting the effect of an outlier in an effort to substantiate an argument or counter. I was not using that phrase in literal. It is a type of logical fallacy. I was simply observing that the use of an outlier argument does not negate the position of the OP. I conceded that the original article was naive. Meaning that it did not provide enough scope to truly address the issue, but the importance of having vision in an environment that allows little is very important.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  ...the article says that the author of the forbes article (as well as you), as a person or privilege, does not understand poverty... If the article is saying this, we can safely reject it as being a pointless ad-hominem attack.
vacri 15y ago
One of the most frequently overlooked issues is that wealthy people know that there's even a better way to begin with. If you don't have a decent mentor, how do you even know that there are decent mentors available? The example of google scholar: we know it exists, but we're in an ecosystem that tells us these things - how do you get into that ecosystem? I've been poor and still kind of am, but I've never known real poverty. I've seen real poverty in others and there's no way in hell I'd want to start from there. The biggest hurdle to escaping endemic poverty is even knowing that there's a way out in the first place.

andylei 15y ago

> misleading vividness what? > hasty generalization there are no generalizations here. the article says that the author of the forbes article (as well as you), as a person or privilege, does not understand poverty and thus has no idea how to solve the problem. if anyone is making "hasty generalizations", its the author of the forbes article, who thinks that poor kids simply aren't trying hard enough. > the use an outlier scenario how do you know this is an outlier scenario? > having goals and knowing that there is a prize to win at the end of the race, is a strong motivator i doubt anyone would disagree with this statement, but it's irrelevant. the original forbes article suggests that having goals and determination are sufficient for escaping poverty. this article makes the argument that even with goals and determination, escaping poverty is still extremely difficult; furthermore, the very condition of poverty undermines the ability to develop goals and determination.

burgerbrain 15y ago
I think it is pretty safe to say that "acts out in school to get suspensions to stop your mother from being a prostitute" is an outlier. I acted out in primary school. I did it because I was an asshole who didn't respect education. I suspect my peers were the same.
- darklajid 15y ago
  Just for reference, since you're now directly comparing two schools (yours and the one in the linked article) here, how would you characterize the similarities or differences between your school and one described as "a primarily low-income, high-minority middle school serving sixth- through eighth-graders"?
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    Yeah, that sounds about like my school. However, I find it very hard to believe that any school in the world can attribute most of it's student unruliness to children trying to get kicked out so that their mothers cannot be prostitutes.
frankydp 15y ago
Misleading vividness is the use of a dramatic event that is not in keeping with the majority of the population group. Hasty generalization is much the same, by weighting the effect of an outlier in an effort to substantiate an argument or counter. I was not using that phrase in literal. It is a type of logical fallacy. I was simply observing that the use of an outlier argument does not negate the position of the OP. I conceded that the original article was naive. Meaning that it did not provide enough scope to truly address the issue, but the importance of having vision in an environment that allows little is very important.
yummyfajitas 15y ago
...the article says that the author of the forbes article (as well as you), as a person or privilege, does not understand poverty... If the article is saying this, we can safely reject it as being a pointless ad-hominem attack.

vacri 15y ago

One of the most frequently overlooked issues is that wealthy people know that there's even a better way to begin with. If you don't have a decent mentor, how do you even know that there are decent mentors available? The example of google scholar: we know it exists, but we're in an ecosystem that tells us these things - how do you get into that ecosystem? I've been poor and still kind of am, but I've never known real poverty. I've seen real poverty in others and there's no way in hell I'd want to start from there. The biggest hurdle to escaping endemic poverty is even knowing that there's a way out in the first place.